From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #543 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 24 Sept 2001 Vol 08 : Num 543 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: visiting BB the_dojang: Re: visiting black belt the_dojang: RE:visiting black belt the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #542 the_dojang: North Korea the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #542 the_dojang: whats is the correct title the_dojang: RE: Gary P the_dojang: RE: visiting black belt (ATA) the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: FGS & KVF Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 15:47:21 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: visiting BB > Well............she did not now how to do switch stance drills, she did not > know how to do a jumping round house kick, she did not know how to do a > spinning hook kick (she fell when she attempted her first one), her round > kicks were horizontal rather than angling up, she did not know how to do a > flying side kick, etc etc etc. > In other words, what i know as taekwondo, she had no idea how to do! > I looked back at him and said, "well it's not her fault, she is a product of > the school and program she was in. She looks exactly like the many black > belts I saw from this group when they did their grand opening a few years > ago". > So, what do I do with her if she decides to join? We have discussed in the > past on this list about honoring rank, but I believe most of that was under > belts. This young lady wears a black belt. I can fix her, > however..................gee wiz, > Others out there, give me some suggestions. > Maybe that's what I'll tell her anyway, look you are an ATA black belt, this > is not the ATA, but then I feel like I'm character assassinating the ATA, > don't want to do that. > So your feed back is very welcome. > gary pieratt > Well, I don't know much about the ATA org but the instructor at my first dojang, a WTF TKD style, got a new student from ATA who was a 13 y/o BB. He was about the same level as the yellow belts at my school, so the instructor told him that he had earned his ATA BB but that for the WTF, he needed to earn his BB. So, he was free to wear his BB, but he would actually be a yellow belt in the WTF. The boy realized soon that wearing his BB was embarrassing as the colored belts were much better than he, so he soon started wearing his yellow belt. My instructor told him that he would be required to test up to BB, but the testing fees would be waved up to 6th Gup. Last time I saw this student, he had earned his 6th Gup rank, and this took him the normal time that anyone starting fresh at my instructor's school. It was sad to see the level that this student's skills were at and realize a school had promoted him to BB. I guess that got the school lots of testing fees. Just input from someone who saw a similar situation. Spunky ------------------------------ From: Richard Zaruba Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 17:55:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: visiting black belt > Maybe that's what I'll tell her anyway, look you are an ATA black belt, this > is not the ATA, but then I feel like I'm character assassinating the ATA, > don't want to do that. > > So your feed back is very welcome. > > gary pieratt There are at least two approaches that you should consider. 1) Allow her to keep her black belt on a provisional status and require that she learns what she is lacking by learning your schools curriculum from white belt to black belt within a given time frame. 2) Allow her to progress through accelerated promotions at your school up to the rank of Black Belt. The problem with the first is that she is not at what you consider black belt level at your school and it causes other students to question why she is a black belt. The strength is if she is motivated to learn the new requirements she will set an excellent example for the other students and you don't run a risk of offending her. The problem with the second is that you run the risk of offending her because she has already earned her "black belt" in Tae Kwon Do. If you get the majority of students through word of mouth this can cause problems. The strength of this approach is by allowing her accelerated promotions she is motivated to learn the new material and obtain her previous rank at the same time your students will not question the "black belt" status of a student. You are most definitely correct in saying it would be easier if she came from a different style. Then there should be no assumptions and you could just start them as a regular student of take option two depending on their level of ability. Hope this helps. Sincerely, Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax ------------------------------ From: bredfield Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:33:00 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE:visiting black belt Wow, I can sympathize, I have seen the same from other TSD and TKD styles coming in to learn our TSD , Hyung wise of course I would expect a problem of not knowing the forms, but for the most part the TKD people I have met have fit in fine, exept for the hands down leg in front waving in the air types, but hell, they at least could kinda hold thier own with leg techs till they learned to guard the old cranium, I would let the person keep the b-belt and have them come to different belt classes at first to help them along, then just b-belt classes till they learned the requirments, to test into the style, sound fair?? Bernard ------------------------------ From: Clothahump Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 19:52:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #542 > > > From: CKCtaekwon@cs.com > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 08:29:08 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: visiting black belt > > Well............she did not now how to do switch stance drills, she did not > know how to do a jumping round house kick, she did not know how to do a > spinning hook kick (she fell when she attempted her first one), her round > kicks were horizontal rather than angling up, she did not know how to do a > flying side kick, etc etc etc. > > In other words, what i know as taekwondo, she had no idea how to do! > > She did not seem embarrassed, but rather eager to learn, and listened > intently as I explained to her how to do the techniques. > The parent of my black belt who brought her looked at me and asked, "what do > you think, orange belt?". > > I looked back at him and said, "well it's not her fault, she is a product of > the school and program she was in. She looks exactly like the many black > belts I saw from this group when they did their grand opening a few years > ago". > > So, what do I do with her if she decides to join? We have discussed in the > past on this list about honoring rank, but I believe most of that was under > belts. This young lady wears a black belt. I can fix her, > however..................gee wiz, > > Does the ATA not do the above mentioned kicks? ATA guys, give me some feed > back here. Yes, they do. By the time a person earns 1st Degree, they should be able to do durn near any kick known to man (or woman), if they are physically capable of doing the technique. They should certainly be able to do the ones you mentioned. Switching stance is taught at about green belt level or before, as the student is learning how to spar. Jump round kicks are not "required" until red belt, but they are learned long before then. Spin hook kicks are not required until blue belt, but again, they are learned before then. Same for jump side kicks at brown belt. And FWIW, round kicks are taught horizontal as well as with a slight angle up. Are you sure she's an ATA Black Belt? There are people who represent themselves as being ATA schools, but are really not. And ATA, despite its efforts, does have some bad instructors, although I personally feel our percentage is a lot less than most other organizations. But I'm biased :-) > > > Others out there, give me some suggestions. If she was from a karate style, I > could explain to her that this was taekwondo, the styles are quite different, > she should be proud of her black belt, but she needs to start at > __________(fill in the blank) at my school since it is a different style. > > Maybe that's what I'll tell her anyway, look you are an ATA black belt, this > is not the ATA, but then I feel like I'm character assassinating the ATA, > don't want to do that. Well, speaking as a member of the ATA, I appreciate that! > ------------------------------ > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 8:04:33 PDT > Subject: Re: the_dojang: visiting black belt > > wrt to roundhouse kicks, here is not just one. There are several. > Horizontal is correct. Angling up is correct. Angling down is correct. > etc. The then chairman of the Kukkiwon technical committee (the > chairmanship changes, I think, yearly) told me a few years back that > there were five types of roundhouse kick. Not sure how many there are now. > Mr. Terry is quite correct. The horizontal round kick is taught being thrown from the hip. It is the slowest of the round kicks, but the most powerful, and is usually seen in forms and board breaks. The round kick thrown angling up is a faster technique, kinda halfway between a front kick and a round kick. We nicknamed it the "frown" kick for that reason. It's a great sparring technique because the chamber is the same as the front kick, and all you have to do is move your hips to get the angle and come around a guard. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:33:35 PDT Subject: the_dojang: North Korea North Korea Sent US Private Cable on Anti-Terrorism September 23, 2001 North Korea contacted the United States immediately after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks on New York and Washington, D.C., telling its archrival that it regretted the attacks and didn't have anything to do with them, South Korean officials said on Sunday (Sept. 23). The North sent a 'private communication' to that effect to the U.S. State Department via the Swedish Embassy in Pyeongyang, a senior South Korean official said on condition of anonymity. The Swedish Embassy performs some functions for the U.S., as the latter doesn't have diplomatic relations with the North. The U.S. appreciated Pyeongyang's prompt expression of its anti-terrorism stance, the official said. It is likely to improve Pyeongyang's image and help resume their suspended bilateral talks on a more conciliatory note. The North Korean Foreign Ministry, through the country's official Korean Central News Agency (KCNA), condemned the attacks on Wednesday, the day after they took place, saying that they were tragic and regretful events. Sources say, however, that Pyeongyang's private communication was more strong-worded than its official announcement. "I believe that Pyeongyang must have intended to assure Washington of its anti-terrorism stance very quickly without getting unnecessary attention," a North Korea watcher explained, when asked why Pyeongyang utilized the Swedish Embassy rather than its New York channel. The U.S. has been as forthcoming as before, if not more, on the resumption of dialogue with the North, since the attacks. Evans Revere, deputy chief of the mission at the U.S. Embassy, said last Friday that the terrorist attacks would not adversely affect the U.S. engagement effort toward Pyeongyang. Revere shared his optimism with senior U.S. officials. Secretary of State Colin Powell offered to resume dialogue with Pyeongyang without any preconditions last Thursday after meeting his Korean counterpart Han Seung-soo. The new U.S. Ambassador, Thomas Hubbard also stated that the U.S. remains willing to engage the North. Americas unchanged willingness to talk to the North runs counter to speculation that Washington will revert to a hard-line policy in dealing with Pyeongyang as a backlash from the worst terrorist attacks in U.S. history. ------------------------------ From: "john sodihlhxh" Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 23:03:13 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #542 ), her round >kicks were horizontal rather than angling up, funny 20 years ago i was told that horizontal or even slightly down is the ONLY correct way to do round kicks. and thing else was considered slop. I personally consider horizontal correct with different angles to be MODIFIED techniques. a front kick is vertical and a round kick horizontal.. and they are both the same type of motion. so what do we call the same motion done at any of the 89 degrees of angles between horizontal and vertical? maybe its best left undefined. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: c <24wide@bellsouth.net> Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 01:23:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: whats is the correct title I would like some more input on the following post I sent in last week. I know this has been posted before but what is the correct way to address a black belt using their full name and title? How would I write out someone's name if they are a Jo Kyo Nim and their name is John Q. Public (for example)? I forget which comes first the name or the title. Kuk Sool chris ------------------------------ From: "ISA CONSULTATION GROUP" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 06:09:42 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Gary P Gary, Have one of your black belts stand with the ATA black belt and show what is expected of your black belts. That way you can explain why you can't honor her black belt right now. Try to do it in a positive way. She may have other attributes that enhance her black belt skills, other than kicking and foot work. IMHO, George Petrotta http://taekwondo.4dw.com/ http://hapkido.4dw.com/ http://leftbehind2001.tripod.com/ http://isamartialart.tripod.com/ ISA CONSULTATION GROUP includes ISA Martial Arts, ISA Web Design and ISA Consulting Services! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:51:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: visiting black belt (ATA) First, I believe that within any organization, quality and focus will differ from school to school. Second, the student themselves will need to be receptive to what an instructor has to offer, in order to learn. In the ATA, not only are jump round kicks, and spin/reverse hook kicks taught, but this particular individual would have needed to demonstrate BOTH in her red belt form. All ATA forms are designed so that every technique (for the most part) is demonstrated using BOTH sides of the body. In the 46 moves in the red belt form, there are two jump round kicks, and two 'reverse' hooks. This demonstrates the kicks with both legs. Flying side-kick.....In the 44 moves of our brown belt form, there are two jump side kicks. These essentially come from a closed stance (both feet together). The flying side-kick, I believe, would be to take multiple steps, or to run, then jump and kick. This should have been taught either as a floor drill, on pads and/or wavemaster. So - YES, the ATA does teach them not only in forms, but one-steps, sparring segments, self-defense (ho-sin-sol), drills, etc..... HOWEVER, the ATA does have some unique terminology, which may be why she didn't understand what was being asked. It is no excuse, however, for not being able to demonstrate those techniques once you do understand what is being asked/taught. For example, in the Red belt form (Choong Jung Ee-Jahng) the jump round kicks would be referred to as #3 jump round kick. The hook kick would be a Reverse Hook kick (kicking leg lands forward - the spin hook kick the kicking leg would return to where it started). The jump side kick in the brown belt form is a #1 jump side kick. As far as rank - whatever belt you start her at, I am sure she will not be able to promote until she has learned (relearned) everything to the standards of your school. So, perhaps the actual color doesn't really matter......On the other hand, I am sure you would want all your black belts to properly represent the quality of your instruction and the standards of your school......Perhaps starting as a red belt would honor most of her rank, but would put her in a definite position of having to learn/relearn forms and techniques before being able to wear a black belt in your school. Hope this information helps. In the spirit, Mark mark.lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 7:33:36 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #543 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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