From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #544 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 24 Sept 2001 Vol 08 : Num 544 In this issue: the_dojang: kicks and such the_dojang: Re: 1st BB Stuff the_dojang: Roundhouse kicks the_dojang: transfer BB the_dojang: visiting BB the_dojang: Re: Visiting Black Belt the_dojang: RE: Visiting Black Blet the_dojang: Another Prespective Re: the_dojang: visiting black belt the_dojang: Honoring others Black Belt the_dojang: Re: ATA and techniques the_dojang: GM JI the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:03:31 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: kicks and such > Well............she did not now how to do switch stance drills, she did not > know how to do a jumping round house kick, she did not know how to do a > spinning hook kick (she fell when she attempted her first one), her round > kicks were horizontal rather than angling up, she did not know how to do a > flying side kick, etc etc etc. > In other words, what i know as taekwondo, she had no idea how to do! Another way to look at this is "she knew all sorts of different ways to do taekwondo." Now, I came in on this early and assume that she is relatively competent at what she DOES know. If so, my recommendation would be to have her workout at black belt level and just learn the new material. She'll get there. And she will have other things she can bring to the game. I remember when one of my black belts (in our old style tkd, not Olympic) went to an Olympic school in another state and the guy had her start over. Why? For extra testing fees? It was pretty funny to hear that she (as a white belt) chased one of the temps all over the floor in sparring. Apparently he got pretty steamed (he was caught up in belt color, and was also NOT living up to his own). By the way, I never teach the angling up roundhouse above thigh level, because it is very easy to break the foot against the elbow. I teach that horizontal kick you mentioned! :) I also believe that a spinning hook is a great way to get choked out, and that switch stance drills will get you nailed, that flying side kicks are pretty and good for building technique but otherwise stupid beyond belief. So what should I do if an Olympic stylist comes to my school? He/she will have great kicks, good conditioning, and lots of energy, but a blast up the centerline will nail them. Should they start all over? :) Oh, and I ought to mention that I'm not ATA, and that although we have ATA people work out with us at their equivalent rank, I think they tend to be closer to sport karate than we are. And before anyone flames me, let me just say that everyone is different anyways, and that variety in the arts is better than only practicing against someone who does exactly what you do. Take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:13:32 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: 1st BB Stuff Dear CKC: ".....Yes, they do. By the time a person earns 1st Degree, they should be able to do durn near any kick known to man (or woman), if they are physically capable of doing the technique....." I think I understand the situation in question and won't pretend to speak to either TKD or the ATA not having much in-depth experience with either. The reason I am responding is that I have seen similar statements as the one I clipped above and wonder about it. If a 1st BB is expected to have the profficency you mentioned, what remains for that person to learn apart from alternate versions and venues of the same material for the rest of their MA career? Does this explain how it is that I am hearing various TKD advocates introducing material from other arts into their curriculum? Could this be a reason that once a person makes 1st or 2nd BB in TKD they feel as qualified as anyone else to open a school, start collecting contracts, organizing tournaments and doing seminars? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:46:09 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Roundhouse kicks These comments were posted (snip) >> wrt to roundhouse kicks, here is not just one. There are several. >> Horizontal is correct. Angling up is correct. Angling down is correct. >> etc. The then chairman of the Kukkiwon technical committee (the >> chairmanship changes, I think, yearly) told me a few years back that >> there were five types of roundhouse kick. Not sure how many there are now. >> > >Mr. Terry is quite correct. The horizontal round kick is taught being thrown from the hip. It is >the slowest of the round kicks, but the most powerful, and is usually seen in forms and board >breaks. The round kick thrown angling up is a faster technique, kinda halfway between a front kick >and a round kick. We nicknamed it the "frown" kick for that reason. It's a great sparring >technique because the chamber is the same as the front kick, and all you have to do is move your >hips to get the angle and come around a guard. (de-snip) Interesting notes on the venerable Roundhouse kick. We call the "angling up" round kick a "wheel kick". Differs from std. round kick in that the base foot does not pivot 180 deg. We are taught std. round kick with a horz. attack and the base foot pivoting 180 deg. Wheel kick can be delivered much faster then std. r/h, but not as powerful since the hips are not as 'engaged' in the kick. Used for going over or under the guard IE: under the leading elbow to the ribs, or(if the guard is dropped) over the guard to the head. I'm fuzzy on what is meant by angling the round kick down???? Can someone explain? targets? purpose? mechanics? Is it for attacking a low joint(like the knee)? Still, in my mind, the kick would be horizontal, just low ... help this poor feeble minded person out! Also like to comment on "keeping the hands up"... Someone noted that some TKD folks let their hands/arms hang (ala Mohammed Ali) when sparring. That is the quickest way I know (leastways in our dojang) to get slapped up side the head. TKD rules notwithstanding we strongly emphasis guarding the head.... I've never understood the point of letting the hands drop in sparring, even Olympic style, because in any style sparring the head is still a target, just different weapons attacking it (hands VS. feet). But I'm no Olympian ('til they get that beer drinking competition approved) so what do I know? have a groovy day, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 08:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: transfer BB Let her wear her belt and ATA dobhok and patches. Line her up and refer to her as Dan Bo (BB candidate) in your school or provisional BB (with no stripes maybe). Give her a time frame to learn all material for Cho Dan in your system/school then award your BB, patches and dobohk. Or use the 1 percent traditional approach. Give her a white belt and explain she is a beginner in your school/system. Just my HMO Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:19:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: visiting BB Gary, I have had to deal with this situation several times in the past. The best all around solution I have found is to set a policy that everyone that comes in must test for the rank they are wearing if they want to join my school. And for black belts, they must spend a minimum of 6 months under my instruction before they can test for black belt. We have a rank called cho dan bo, roughly translated as black belt candidate, which is between cho dan and Il gup. So a black belt that comes in and joins class can begin there, but has to learn everything they should know in my school before they are ready to test. Note though, that I encourage anyone to come in and work out with my classes, and they can wear whatever belt they have earned. So people who visit always wear their earned rank. But by having a policy, there is no embarassment or singling out. However, the person can not test until they are prepared for their test. Although we have minimum time limits, I test only by invitation when I believe the student is ready. As for jumping roundhouse kicks, and roundhouse kicks in general, there are lots of varients that I believe to be correct, including the horizonal turning kick, which I was originally taught as the best form. I differentiate between several of them and teach several in my school including a 45 degree angle, horizonal, and even downward angle in some cases, front leg kicks, and a variation we call ahp tollyo chagi, which chambers vertical as a front kick, then roll the hips as you execute the kick. With jumping roundhouse kicks, again there are several varients, jumping off the leg you kick with which we call e dan tollyo chagi, and jumping from standing position and kicking with either the front or the back leg which we call deah tollyo chagi. We also have a jump spinning roundhouse kick which is very difficult to master. Switch stance drills are not universal in my experience. Again, there are several variations in yup hu ryo chagi or hook kicks and dwi hu ryo chagi or wheel kicks. But as a general rule, it has been my experience that work on all the basic kicks and basic jump kicks should have been at least begun by say 4th gup. All the technical stuff aside, to me it is very sad to see this kind of thing. I have some schools in my area that turn out students like these. You are right in pointing out it is not the student's fault. A student can only learn what he/she is taught. Their only fault may be that they did not spend enough time checking things out or were lured in by relatively short training period to black belt, and the belief that the rank of black belt is a standard that means the same thing everywhere. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 09:22:31 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Visiting Black Belt There are many other Masters who will not recognize other arts and will insist that you wear your white belt in their Dojo. One of our Blackbelt Brian Beasly from my School went to Okinawa for several years to study with my Sensei's Master ( featured in a blackbelt article) See Attached Link http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/kki/1986/sep86/vs/vs.html Hope this article helps. Prince ------------------------------ From: "Anne Skjold" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:28:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Visiting Black Blet At our school WTF, we do not honor ATA Black Belt Rank, but they do accelerate faster to 'earn' their WTF BB rank ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 12:04:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Another Prespective Hey all, I just got the following open letter from a friend of mine today. I thought this view and prespective of our reaction as a nation to the 9/11 attack is different and a little more realistic. In short, I guess it reflects my own opinion. But I thought it might be of interest to the DD members. So Ray, with your permission, here it is. Danny Dunn << Recently, I was asked to look at the recent events through the lens of >military history. I have joined the cast of thousands who have written an >"open letter to Americans." Please share it if you feel so moved. Tony > >14 September, 2001 > >Dear friends and fellow Americans > >Like everyone else in this great country, I am reeling from last week's >attack on our sovereignty. But unlike some, I am not reeling from surprise. >As a career soldier and a student and teacher of military history, I have a >different perspective and I think you should hear it. This war will be won >or lost by the American citizens, not diplomats, politicians or soldiers. > >Let me briefly explain. > >In spite of what the media, and even our own government is telling us, this >act was not committed by a group of mentally deranged fanatics. To dismiss >them as such would be among the gravest of mistakes. This attack was >committed by a ferocious, intelligent and dedicated adversary. Don't take >this the wrong way. I don't admire these men and I deplore their tactics, >but I respect their capabilities. The many parallels that have been made >with the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor are apropos. Not only because it >was a brilliant sneak attack against a complacent America, but also because >we may well be pulling our new adversaries out of caves 30 years after we >think this war is over, just like my father's generation had to do with the >formidable Japanese in the years following WW II. >These men hate the United States with all of their being, and we must not >underestimate the power of their moral commitment. Napoleon, perhaps the >world's greatest combination of soldier and statesman, stated "the moral is >to the physical as three is to one." Patton thought the Frenchman >underestimated its importance and said moral conviction was five times more >important in battle than physical strength. Our enemies are willing - better >said anxious -- to give their lives for their cause. How committed are we >America? And for how long? > >In addition to demonstrating great moral conviction, the recent attack >demonstrated a mastery of some of the basic fundamentals of warfare >taught to most military officers worldwide, namely simplicity, security and >surprise. >When I first heard rumors that some of these men may have been trained at >our own Air War College, it made perfect sense to me. This was not a random >act of violence, and we can expect the same sort of military competence to >be displayed in the battle to come. This war will escalate, with a good >portion of it happening right here in the good ol' U.S. of A. > >These men will not go easily into the night. They do not fear us. We >must not fear them. > >In spite of our overwhelming conventional strength as the world's only >"superpower" (a truly silly term), we are the underdog in this fight. >As you listen to the carefully scripted rhetoric designed to prepare us for >the march for war, please realize that America is not equipped or seriously >trained for the battle ahead. To be certain, our soldiers are much better >than the enemy, and we have some excellent "counter-terrorist" >organizations, but they are mostly trained for hostage rescues, airfield >seizures, or the occasional "body snatch," (which may come in handy). We >will be fighting a war of annihilation, because if their early efforts are >any indication, our enemy is ready and willing to die to the last man. >Eradicating the enemy will be costly and time consuming. They have already >deployed their forces in as many as 20 countries, and are likely living the >lives of everyday citizens. Simply put, our soldiers will be tasked with a >search and destroy mission on multiple foreign landscapes, and the public >must be patient and supportive until the strategy and tactics can be worked >out. > >For the most part, our military is still in the process of redefining itself >and presided over by men and women who grew up with - and were promoted >because they excelled in - Cold War doctrine, strategy and tactics. This >will not be linear warfare, there will be no clear "centers of gravity" to >strike with high technology weapons. Our vast technological edge will >certainly be helpful, but it will not be decisive. Perhaps the perfect >metaphor for the coming battle was introduced by the terrorists themselves >aboard the hijacked aircraft -- this will be a knife fight, and it will be >won or lost by the ingenuity and will of citizens and soldiers, not by >software or smart bombs. We must also be patient with our military leaders. > >Unlike Americans who are eager to put this messy time behind us, our >adversaries have time on their side, and they will use it. They plan to >fight a battle of attrition, hoping to drag the battle out until the American >public loses its will to fight. This might be difficult to believe in this >euphoric time of flag waving and patriotism, but it is generally acknowledged >that America lacks the stomach for a long fight. We need only look as far >back as Vietnam, when North Vietnamese General Vo Nguyen Giap (also a >military history teacher) defeated the United States of America without >ever winning a major tactical battle. American soldiers who marched to war >cheered on by flag waving Americans in 1965 were reviled and spat upon less >than three years later when they returned. Although we hope that Usama >Bin Laden is no Giap, he is certain to understand and employ the concept. >We can expect not only large doses of pain like the recent attacks, but! also >less audacious "sand in the gears" tactics, ranging from livestock >infestations >to attacks at water supplies and power distribution facilities. These >attacks are designed to hit us in our "comfort zone" forcing the average >American to "pay more and play less" and eventually eroding our resolve. >But it can only work if we let it. > >It is clear to me that the will of the American citizenry - you and I - >is the center of gravity the enemy has targeted. It will be the fulcrum >upon which victory or defeat will turn. He believes us to be soft, >impatient, and >self-centered. He may be right, but if so, we must change. The Prussian >general Carl von Clausewitz, (the most often quoted and least read military >theorist in history), says that there is a "remarkable trinity of war" that >is composed of the (1) will of the people, (2) the political leadership of >the government, and (3) the chance and probability that plays out on the >field of battle, in that order. Every American citizen was in the crosshairs >of last Tuesday's attack, not just those that were unfortunate enough to be >in the World Trade Center or Pentagon. The will of the American people will >decide this war. If we are to win, it will be because we have what it >takes to persevere through a few more hits, learn from our! mistakes, >improvise, and adapt. If we can do that, we will eventually prevail. > >Everyone I've talked to In the past few days has shared a common frustration, >saying in one form or another "I just wish I could do something!" You >are already doing it. Just keep faith in America, and continue to support >your President and military, and the outcome is certain. If we fail to do >so, the outcome is equally certain. > >God Bless America >Dr. Tony Kern, Lt Col, USAF (Ret) > >Former Director of Military History, USAF Academy >-- Tony Kern ------------------------------ From: Erik Kluzek Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 11:02:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Re: the_dojang: visiting black belt On Sun, 23 Sep 2001 CKCtaekwon@cs.com wrote: > Others out there, give me some suggestions. If she was from a karate style, I > could explain to her that this was taekwondo, the styles are quite different, > she should be proud of her black belt, but she needs to start at > __________(fill in the blank) at my school since it is a different style. > This explaination still applies. There's a huge variation in standards, techniques, and methods for Tae Kwon Do. Look at it this way, Tae Kwon Do is the "style", but there are lot's of sub-styles. Karate is similar, there are hundreds of sub-styles, Shotokan, Goju, and Ishin-ryu are are styles of Karate but they are extremely different! Even Shudokan and Shotokan are quite different. Tae Kwon Do has as much variation as Karate-do. Different associations have different standards, guidelines, minimum times to test, different teaching methods, and different techniques that are taught, different emphasis on power, speed, form and every other aspect. The bottom line is that you can't count on anything. Just because they are a black-belt in association X doesn't mean they meet the standards in your association. Even then it doesn't necissarily mean that they are a bad student either. If association X doesn't do the same forms or learn the same techniques or do the same techniques the same way your association does -- that does not in and of itself mean association X's standards are lower -- just different. > Maybe that's what I'll tell her anyway, look you are an ATA black belt, this > is not the ATA, but then I feel like I'm character assassinating the ATA, > don't want to do that. > Again, making the above statement does not necissarily "character assasinate the ATA". It just says methods, techniques and standards are different. In order to be an effective part of the class the student needs to learn the standards from your association. Also, it's inappropriate to judge an association by one student (both good and bad students for that matter). Giving the student the benefit of the doubt, she may not have been practicing actively recently, and she may also be nervous herself, realizing "we're not in Kansas anymore Toto". If there are techniques that you flat out don't know, it's pretty hard to try to do them at any level of competency. If the instructor looks at the belt only, they may expect the student to have vast experience in techniques they have never done. In general I try to have students with experience in other styles, start with simple things and see how far I can ramp them up. It's also good to expose them to a broad spectrum of things to see what they are familiar and unfamiliar with. In sparring you can often find out if there are things that they know -- that you don't practice. If you expect them to perform at your association's black-belt level in everything -- most likely they will run into trouble even with a high level of competency, since there will undoubtably be things they don't know, and much of the teaching patterns will be different. Personally, I think it's better to expect a fairly low level of competency, but put them through everything until you get a good idea of where their level of ability falls in your school. You can learn a lot in a single class, but it probably takes several weeks to get a accurate gauge. Especially, if you want to find out what techniques they need extra work on. Erik Kluzek Longmont CO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 10:13:28 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Honoring others Black Belt Regarding the Question of whether to recognize an existing Black Belts rank when they change over to your organization/system, and they do not have the skills you demand. My opinion - FWIW, A visiting Black Belt should be accorded all the honor offered your own Black Belts (regardless of their skills). However, when they choose to stop being a visitor, and become a student, then they should be offered all the honor given your own students. Whatever belt you offer, if you offer it sincerely, reflects your standards and opinion. It is better for everyone to have a good understanding of your expectations, than to have one more student. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Brad Bezoni" Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 13:29:10 +0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA and techniques - ------------------------------------ Well............she did not now how to do switch stance drills, she did not know how to do a jumping round house kick, she did not know how to do a spinning hook kick (she fell when she attempted her first one), her round kicks were horizontal rather than angling up, she did not know how to do a flying side kick, etc etc etc. In other words, what i know as taekwondo, she had no idea how to do! - ---------------------------------------- This is very odd, considering that for at least the last 3 years there have been formal requirements of knowing all techniques you listed off in order to promote to the next rank - the highest of which from the kicks you noted is Blue Belt! And before you think that the ATA didn't teach those techniques before that, they were there, you just didn't have to get up in front of everyone and show that you could do them. Now, I know I may get trampled on by all the other ATA members on the list, but your post only drives home a point that my instructor and I have been noticing - since ATA went to a "block style" teaching program, technique quality at all rank levels has been decreasing. However, that is a post for another time... Back to the original question - as an "ATA guy" for close to 10 years now, I can guarantee you that that Black Belt should have known all of those kicks that you asked her to do- in fact most of them are in the 1st degree/dan form! Also, I would beg of you not to use this one student as a benchmark for the whole ATA, or even the school she came from for that matter. As with all styles and all things in life, there are some good and some bad. All I can say is that in the two regions of the US that I have lived in, the ATA schools put out much better quality that what you have listed. Also, thanks to Ray for the input about the round kick. ATA does teach for the kick to go horizontal for forms, but from whatever angle is needed for "practical" application. Brad Bezoni, 3rd Degree Black Belt - ATA ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 16:15:56 EDT Subject: the_dojang: GM JI Ray, I was surfing through the net and have seen some pics of you with Grandmaster Ji. How long have you trained with him? What was the training like? JAck ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2001 18:45:57 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #544 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.