From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #560 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 4 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 560 In this issue: the_dojang: Not real TKD the_dojang: RE: Opportunities Missed the_dojang: Mt. Guemgang the_dojang: Re: Fist vs Palm stuff the_dojang: Re: Hip Vs Shoulder Stuff the_dojang: Re: jabs the_dojang: Three knuckle landing the_dojang: RE: Punching Stuff the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick L" Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 14:42:16 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Not real TKD Dear Mr. Alagna, >What would you say, if a person says that you are not practicing/studying >real TKD because it is not I.T.F. TKD??< If he was my senior, I would smile and say "I don't understand sir, please explain.", and if he was my junior, I would ask why he had such an opinion, and what he hoped to accomplish with it. JMHO Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 15:18:08 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Opportunities Missed ".....With this new system you can learn to defend yourself in your spare time and in the privacy of your own home. Don't let this opportunity pass you by....." Damn. Just let the opportunity pass me by! Now I guess I'll just have to do it the ol' fashion way and train regularly like everybody else. Ain't that a bitch. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2001 18:20:41 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Mt. Guemgang Two Koreas to Begin Talks on Mt. Geumgang Thursday October 3, 2001 South and North Korea will start official talks on Thursday (Oct.4) on the opening of an overland tourism route to the North's Mt. Guemgang, with South Korean delegates seeking an early conclusion of the talks to stimulate the troubled inter-Korea tourism project. A three-member South Korean delegation, accompanied by aides and reporters, left for Mt. Guemgang aboard a ferry from the eastern port of Sokcho and arrived at the North Korean port of Jangjeon on Wednesday (Oct. 3). The two sides entered into preparatory talks at Geumgangsan Hotel at the scenic mountain resort, built by the South's Hyundai business group, and set the meeting's agenda and detailed procedures. "This meeting will provide authorities of the two Koreas with an opportunity to work out government-level steps to help stimulate the tourism project," said Vice Unification Minister Kim Hyong-ki. He made the remarks at the Office for South-North Dialogue in Samcheong-dong, while sending off the South Korean delegation. The unprecedented tourism project hit a snag because of the dwindling number of South Korean tourists and Hyundai's financial difficulties. "By creating a breakthrough in our negotiations to open an overland route and start a pilot tour program, we hope that the upcoming talks will serve as an occasion to help the Mt. Guemgang tourism project proceed smoothly," he said. Kim also said, "We will also urge the North to designate Mt. Guemgang as a special zone so that we can attract domestic and foreign investment to go ahead with a package of projects to build golf courses and ski resorts." After the meeting with Kim, Cho Myong-kyun, director general of the ministry's Exchange and Cooperation Bureau, left for the North, leading the 26-member delegation. Upon their arrival, the South Koreans had an official dinner with their North Korean hosts at a restaurant inside the resort area. The two sides will have a plenary session and one-on-one meetings between head delegates to discuss ways to revitalize the inter-Korea tourism project. In Thursday (Oct. 4)'s official talks, the South Korean delegation will make a keynote speech to urge the North to take measures to designate the mountain and its vicinity as a special zone and connect roads linking the areas in the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ). One of the key agenda items is when to open military talks to facilitate the tourism project. As the construction of an overland route should take place inside the DMZ and its vicinity, the North Korea military, which controls the border area, should first agree on the idea. At present, the North Korean military's position on the opening of a land route is not clear. Meanwhile, North Korean delegates are set to take issue with whether Hyundai has the intention to keep its promise to pay $942 million by March 2005 as a reward for its exclusive rights to operate the tour program. To assist the South Korean government officials, the Hyundai group also dispatched senior executives to Mt. Guemgang. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 19:51:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Fist vs Palm stuff Dear Michael: "...This is one of the reasons I use palm stikes these days...." >From what I know of the HAN PUL people they use almost exclusively palm heel strikes. The individual who researched the material before developing the art seemed to believe that traditional Korean arts favored the palm over the fist. Of course, opinions vary. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2001 20:03:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hip Vs Shoulder Stuff Now if you have huge upper lats (see makiwara pounding above) you can generate enough rotation about the upper torso by keeping both feet flat in a very rooted method with the rear foot no more than 15 degrees outside of forward, and using the um-yang motion of pulling the non-punching hand back towards the Dear Charles: "...Now if you have huge upper lats (see makiwara pounding above) you can generate enough rotation about the upper torso by keeping both feet flat in a very rooted method with the rear foot no more than 15 degrees outside of forward, and using the um-yang motion of pulling the non-punching hand back towards the ribs...." Great post. I thought it was especially telling that you mentioned the use of the makiwara to develop greater torso power. I have, of course, always identified such training with the Okinawan and Japanese concusive arts like Karate. Intrestingly there does not seem to be any tradition of this sort of conditioning in the Northern Chinese or Korean arts. I have ocassionally noticed a raised rear heel and a torque of the hips in striking. Given the emphasis on the hip girdle in the Korean arts I wonder if this movement may play a larger part in traditional Korean arts (pre-WW II) than maybe is given its due. Does anyone know if Kuk Sool Won or Hwa Rang Do folks allow for this in their strikes? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:28:11 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: jabs << ??? But you said in your earlier post that Dempsey didn't use the term 'jolt', or at least that is the way I read it. That is why I posted counterexamples. Did you mean he didn't use it early on and picked up that term later from others??? >> Now I see . . . Miscommunication. My first post said that Dempsey preferred to use the term "jolt" and NOT use the term "Jab." This is what I wrote: I agree with the point you were making, but do take the time to read my article on jabs when it comes out in MARTIAL ARTS & COMBAT SPORTS. Jabs can be quite powerful if you throw them correctly, that's why Dempsey liked to call them jolts rather than jabs. Like a well placed sniper round, a jab can take someone out. I think we are on the same sheet of music now. Hope so! Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 00:44:32 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Three knuckle landing << With regard to Dempsey's (and others) advocacy for striking with the last three knuckles, how is it that they avoid the common "boxer fracture" of the fourth metacarpal? Perhaps its a legend, but the EMT and emergency room nurse I work out with say that they can immediately tell when someone's broken hand is from brawling by the characteristic break that a poorly trained puncher sustains. (I know that Dempsey's bare-knuckle credentials are solid...there's still a disparity between what I hear regarding the consequences of punching that way).>> Here is the theory behind the three knuckle landing that Dempsey used and that Ned Beaumont also advocates in "Championship Streetfighting." Using the vertical fist, the punch lands cleanly and with full power on the pinky, ring finger, and middle finger knuckles. They call this the line of power. Dempsey called the ring finger knuckle the aiming knuckle. In practice, it is impossible to land a punch on just that knuckle. Even if you could punch with only the aiming knuckle, the power of a serious punch would shatter the bone in the ring finger when the punch landed. Spread among three knuckles, however, it is possible to land full force punches without injury to your hands. Ned goes on to describe the differences of the two knuckle landing as used in TKD and says you can get more power out of a punch with the vertical fist with less chance of breaking the hand and less sprains and breaks of the wrist since the vertical fist with the three knuckle landing aligns the wrist with the punch better, keeping it straight. Personally, I don't use the verticle fist as much. I have practiced the other so much, that it is more natural to me. I do practice vertical fist blows, but not as much. Ned does point out that boxers injure their hands. Can't deny it, happens all the time. His recommendation is hand conditioning. Another alternative is that you can throw open handed blows such as the palm heel stike with the same mechanics as a boxing punch. This can take away some of the risk of breaking your hand. Like Michael T. mentioned in his post, the head is hard. Sort of like punching a bowling ball at times. So the basic boxing punches, straight left, straight right, hook and uppercut can be modified at times to strike with the open hand and still do a lot of damage. Yours in Training, Alain http://members.aol.com/aburrese/ ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2001 01:08:45 EDT Subject: the_dojang: RE: Punching Stuff << If I could coat-tail on Johns' question..... The SABAKI Net had quite a discussion about the tendency of some schools/styles to allow (perhaps even encourage) raising the rear ankle and an attendent pivot of the foot on the ball to produce additonal thrust to the punch. Not being experienced in Boxing or familiar with Dempseys' material I would interested to hear anyones' views on this biomechanic. Best Wishes, Bruce >> Something that Beaumont teaches is the waist twist, and that includes a pivot with the one heel coming off the ground. Starting with your feet parallel and just more than shoulder width apart, toes forward, turn your upper body from the waist to your left. Shoulders should remain in line. Allow feet to pivot naturally. Left foot should turn slightly and remain almost flat, the right foot should turn a lot with the right heel rising and the ball of your right foot acting as the pivot point. This little waist twist/pivot helps put power into a punch. Turning to the left as described of course is for a right hand punch. Reverse to throw the left. This is actually pretty comfortable and if you try it out you can get some power behind your punches. I like to think of driving from the foot all the way to the hand, getting the body into the punch, not just the arm. I usually will come onto my back ball of foot and raise the heel to get power coming from there. Dempsey talks about the shoulder whirl in his book, and I don't remember him talking much about the twist or the foot coming up, but It's been a while since I read the entire book, and I've just looked at a couple parts these last few days. I do notice that in a lot of the drawings in Dempsey's book that the rear foot's heel is up when a punch is being thrown. I discussed some of this in my new video set coming out in January. Have to wait and see how much makes the tapes and what ends up on the cutting room floor before I say too much at this time though. (Certain things don't make the final cut due to time constraints, etc.) Hope this helped a bit though. Yours in Training, Alain ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2001 7:53:05 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #560 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.