From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #567 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 10 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 567 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Brians' Song the_dojang: LEO's and knifes the_dojang: Re: An Academic Approach... the_dojang: RE: Andrew's Adventure the_dojang: Timing in Poomse the_dojang: Kicking a knife the_dojang: Re: judging forms the_dojang: A large thank you... the_dojang: Re: Washington DC the_dojang: Forms the_dojang: RE: Best Practice for Brian Re: the_dojang: Knife defenses the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:01:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Brians' Song Dear Brian: I am so very sorry that you had that experience. I honestly wish that it had not happened to you and hope that in time you will find a way to move past the injury. I wish I could give you words of encouragement regarding taking a more intellectual or academic approach to the MA but unfortunately your experience is not new or rare. For all the brave talk about how MA builds character and develops personality I am afraid that you will find about the same distribution of mean-spirited and small-minded individuals in the MA as in any other endeavor. Even in my profession as a counselor you would be amazed at the number of practitioners who identify themselves as wanting to help others with their problems while refusing to look at their own stuff. Pretty scarey. Nor would I damn the ATA specifically. Personally, I have not been a big fan of the ATA, but I think it may be a bit of an over-reaction to assume that all members of the organization are boneheads. I will tell you, however, that mature, balanced, professional and intelligent individuals will be a rare commodity. Joining an organization that believes as you do is a step in the right direction but does not guarantee that all members will be what you are looking for, only that there is possibly a greater probability of finding the kind of people you want to associate with. In my research into the Korean arts I am finding that many of the connections I am making are either through personal referrals or are one-off relationships associated with a very specific questions or an area of research. Again, joining an organization only increases the chances of finding these relationships, not guaranteeing that they will be there. As far as finding "the best" art to study, you may want to take back some of your power and reduce how much influence you are giving the art over what you want out of the martial traditions. The tradition that you choose is only the hammer and anvil that you have selected to forge yourself. There is nothing intrinsically "magic" or special about one hammer or anvil over another--- only how you use it. Having an instructor who is especially invested in your goals and growth, or a school in your neighborhood, or a famous personality in your city are just icing on the cake--- not the cake itself. One last thing, and that is that you have had the good fortune (??) to get a taste of what you DON'T want. You have been used, abused, discounted and your role in the MA subverted to the intents of another. You don't have to do this again if you don't want to. Just know that there are a helluva lot more people out there that will "help" you repeat this mistake than will assist you in moving to a better experience. "Be Careful. Strive to be happy." Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Gassiot" Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:25:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: LEO's and knifes Good points Mark, I would not assume that I could aqcuire my firearm if confronted by a knife. Two things come to mind. I know a few LEO's and they all have one story or another about training knife versus gun. Different scenarios, all designed by their instructors, where the knife always won. And this is with an exposed firearm. Of course it was designed to train them that "going for the gun" was not always the best option. Sometimes the metal ticket clipboard can be a very effective weapon, or shield. The oldest veteran officer I know said he'd forgotten most of what he learned with his baton training since they started carrying spay. The other one is my brothers favorite, knock 'em down with "heel dust". No need to be the macho guy here. DREW "Actually it's a buck and a quarter, quarter staff." ------------------------------ From: "David N. Beck" Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:27:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: An Academic Approach... Bryan Myers wrote: ... > >Needless to say, I have left his school, and have decided that to remain in >the ATA, an organization that I have some issues with, would not be in my >best interest. My question to the DD is two-fold. First, is it possible >for me to approach the MAs in a academic manner - looking to compare and >contrast the arts (especially Korean) and learn the best of each, forming a >"best practice" for me personally? Second, does anyone have suggestions for >what art might be a good starting point for my further MA education, and >why? 'the best of each' and 'best practice' are of course very subjective. Pretty much every art addresses in some manner striking, kicking, grabs, throws, different ranges, etc. A comparison of arts or of organizations within arts (for instance, WTF vs ITF vs ATA TKD) will give you general tendencies but won't give you specifics for a particular instructor. Look for the best instructors, regardless of 'style'. Watch classes, ask questions, and pick the one(s) that suit you best. David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS SDVS-2, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:34:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Andrew's Adventure Hi Andrew, Sounds like you and your wife passed the interview and just made it out. I agree that you could have been in a really bad situation. Another simple alternative would have been to have turned around and gone right back into the store, especially if you had not had the remote locks. I've had similar things happen a couple of times. Most times it has been when I was with my wife or wife and kids. May have helped since I was somewhat dressed up. Or it could be that some folks tell me I tend to look like I'm hunting when I'm by myself. One of the most important aspects after being aware enough to spot the potential problem is to be versatile enough to change your immediate plans and avoid the encounter. In one case in Sante Fe, I just crossed the street when I realized 4 tough looking guys who were cursing and generally seemed obnoxious positioned themselves on either side of the sidewalk in a shadowed area as my family approached. It may not necessarily be easy, as in this case, when I was literally dragging two kids along across the street as they protested, wanting to know why since the place they wanted to go was only a block or so up the street on the same side which we had been walking. As for firearms they can get you into more problems than they solve a lot of times. Not that I am against firearms. I carry a concealed weapon myself a lot. But to pull a handgun because someone is approaching you and you feel threatened can cause a lot of problems, or it can escalate the situation into a gunfight. Especially since the most simple answer is usually to change your action when you recognize the danger. Danny Dunn <<<<>>>>> ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:21:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Timing in Poomse Mr. Woodard posted : >From: "Woodard Brian (ChW/TEF8)" >Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2001 10:54:03 -0400 >Subject: the_dojang: Form Speed >I have observed at several schools (including my own) people performing the >same form at various speeds. Some slow but with great power and accuracy. >Others at very fast speeds but hardly any distinction between moves and >stances. IMHO the fast way seems sloppy to me especially if the moves are >not visibly finished before executing the next move. Now having said that, >I have seen many talented MA(s) perform forms with great speed and still >show completed moves with accuracy and proper stances; and I do believe that >forms should be performed with as much speed and accuracy as can be done >without sacrificing proper stance and accuracy. There is also the issue of >the physical capabilities of the person performing the form, age and >physical stamina. So now on to my question. If you were judging forms in a >tournament, how do you weigh speed, accuracy, and stances in form >competition. >Brian Woodard > I would weigh the three items you mention equally. Timing (in my mind) is critical in forms. If timing is poor in forms practice, it will suffer (again, in my opinion) in other areas as well. I believe a well done form should flow, yet there should still be a visible distinction between the movements. I believe this may not hold true in all training halls however, because I have seen students from some schools where the forms are done quite rapidly without the slightest break between "steps". To my eye, this always looks rather sloppy, as if the practitioner is "in a hurry". Then in a judging situation you are faced with a dilemma: If the student was taught the form as one big ol' movement rather than a series of movements should one deduct points for such a performance or use the other criteria mentioned? I tend to judge the way I was taught and if the form is not well defined by slight pauses between the steps then I would typically grade that form lower than someone who showed the distinction between the movements well, all else being equal. Those who perform Poomse without any pause tend to have other problems relating to eye position (focus) and stance. Often times with no pause it is hard to tell what stance is being used since there is no "lock-out" of the technique or the stance. The problem is compounded if you are judging Poomse that you are not familiar with, then you simply have to judge based on the strength and focus of the movements and the players general "look". As WTF practitioner, with our somewhat shorter forms than other styles, I often slow a form down even more in competition against other styles with longer, more elaborate forms. Hard to win when you are locked out in your last movement whilst your opponent is still whirling around for 20 or thirty seconds after you are done. I guess that's why they call it "judging". 1. To form an opinion or estimation of after careful consideration. These comments are subject to correction, deletion or downright condemnation. dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:14:09 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Kicking a knife Erik said: One technique that I've been taught in the past that I'm not sure I could make work is the "kick it out of their hand". It seems to work real well if the knife is motionless, but I have a hard time kicking a hand that's moving. I'm kind of curious if anyone has been able to pull off a kick to a arm as a knife defense. Good point Erik, and one of the reasons that the kick the knife out of the hand is good for movies, little else. I have had people tell me they have pulled this off. Good for them. I would never advocate this technique, and actually say that you should never attempt it! Why? First, what is the distance your foot has to travel to reach the knife? Compare that distance to the distance the knife has to move to cut your foot or leg as it trys the kick. Quite a difference. Which is faster? Even if you can kick super fast, I can turn my wrist faster, and that's all it takes. A simple turn of the wrist and you can cut the kicking foot, ankle or leg. Example, I'm standing there dumb with the point of the knife straight up, knife arm extended out in front of me. (learned this technique by watching the bad guys in a lot of martial art movies) (I actually prefer the knife to be in my rear hand, protected with my open hand guard, but I digress....) So, I'm standing there in my hollywood stance and you are going to kick the knife away with a roundhouse or maybe crecent kick with your right foot. All I have to do is twist my wrist from the verticle fist that has the point straight up to a horizontal fist that has the blade pointing to my left - right at your incoming foot. Do you want to kick the point of my Cold Steel tanto blade? They demonstrate putting these blades through car doors, so even if you have boots it's going through. Harder and faster your kick, more the knife is going into your foot. Simple twists and movement can slice parts of the leg as well. A puncture to the foot, a slice to the ankle, especially the achiles tendon and your mobility is gone. You won't be able to run away or be mobile to fight. Not a situation I want to be in, that's for sure. Kicks have their place, but kicking a knife out of an attacker's hand is not one of them. Unless you are a movie star and it's in the script. . . Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:42:39 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: judging forms In a message dated 10/10/2001 9:03:46 AM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << OK, group question. What does everyone think about the mini-speeches given before a person does their form in competition. I am finding that the way it is delivered is making me irritable when I judge. I like when someone introduces themselves and their form, but the length of the speech and the fact that the performers sometimes scream it at me is bothersome....anyone else? >> yup, i find that annoying, too. and if they can make that fake smile any bigger and fake friendlier......yeesh. it's not a beauty pageant or talent show. it's a martial arts competition. spirit is great. b.s. is not. melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 09:18:02 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: A large thank you... To ALL those who have responded already (just posted my question yesterday) THANK YOU! TO J.R. West: I understand the idea of starting as a White Belt in a new school, and fully agree with it. I even tried to do that in this case, but my former instructor would not allow me to. He made it a point to make sure I understood that I was not to participate in the junior classes as anything but an instructor. I even asked him the question, in private as I never openly challenged any of his instructions in class, "Should I be teaching in your school? Don't I need to understand you, your school, and how you wish things to be taught?". To which his reply was to give me even more teaching assignments, and less instruction (even on the art of being an instructor!). Thank you Sir for your help and guidance! TO Rich Hodder: I will definitely take a look. You are not the only person to respond with a resounding HAPKIDO! I have given some thought to that form in the past, and shall take another long, hard look. Thank You! TO Erik Kluzek: It was never my intent to tell him how to run his school, quite the opposite I just wanted to understand how he wanted it run. I have great respect for the man's MA abilities, and until recently had respect for him as an instructor and a Martial Artist. However, after the treatment I received, and some review of his past performance with his other student/instructors (and BB's in general) I have come to understand that he has a serious power/control problem. He fails to uphold the ideals of honor, dignity, and respect that would seem to be important to a good martial artist. Your words of guidance are most appreciated! TO Julian Lim: I take my Martial Arts study very seriously, and have always tried to show the utmost respect to my juniors and seniors. Any time I felt that I had a suggestion that could help the students, I made it in private and with respect - as a SUGGESTION. Never would I consider TELLING an instructor how to run their school. As for the "volunteering", when it comes to teaching - the word volunteer is used loosely. In that school you are expected to teach the junior class, pay your full dues, and like it. If you do not teach, or join one of our organizations "special programs" you are looked down upon by this instructor, and often treated as asecond rate student when it is time for YOUR instruction. Fortunately for me, I love teaching - especially the younger students. Teaching to me is a great priviledge, and anytime I can work with the younger students I feel recharged and ready for anything the world can throw at me! I also enjoy Martial Arts History and the academic endevour of finding "the truth" or atleast finding something that would seem to come close to it! ;-) Thank you Ma'am for your kind words of encouragement! Please, all of you still formulating a response - send it! These people chose to respond in private, but I felt that a heartfelt thank you in front of the entire DD was in order! They also brought up some issues that I had glossed over, but are very important to anyone in my position. Once again thank you everyone, and I hope to hear even more great ideas! Yours in the Martial Spirit! Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: BTBEACH@aol.com Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:34:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Washington DC Jin Pal Hapkido is in the area. Allthough its not in Washington DC it is a short Metro ride (about 15-20 mins) from Downtown. GM Kim is a 9th Dan under DuJuNim Ji Han Jae. The studio is open 6-8 PM M-F and noon on Sat. for adults. There are also day classes Mon. Wens. and Thurs. 12 pm to 2 or 3. There are also classes offered downtown at the fitness/health club in the Ritz Carlton on M Street, which is in D.C. ( I don't know if you have to be a member of the club to take the classes.) Studio Address 11410 Rockville Pike Rockville, MD. 20852 Phone: (301) 881-8888 Ask for Eric (GM's son) or Grandmaster Kim Hope to see you, Brian Beach ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 11:47:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Forms Just a couple of thoughts on forms, and please understand that I don't teach or practice forms, although I have at one time many years ago. First, I was always taught that a good form does NOT have a musical rhythm to it, but should be done in "groups of movements", for example, a block followed by a strike would be quick, but a kick followed by block would be a little slower since it should be against 2 different opponents. Secondly, I was taught that a good speed to execute a form would be one second for each movement, with a couple of seconds added to the total, e.g., a twenty move form would take about 23 seconds....again, this would just be an approximation. Thirdly, when judging forms, prior to the beginning of the competition, I would tell the people in my ring that I was NOT deaf , excessively slow of thought or sleeping, so DO NOT YELL at me. Don't give me the history of the form, the number of movements, or any more information other than what I need to judge your form, and PLEASE don't ask me if it's OK to begin......what would you do if I said "no!". The best presentation that I can ever remember was a Japanese gentleman that stood when his name was called, walked out to his beginning position, took a ready stance, announced the name of his form and started. As senior man on the judging panel, the other judges asked me about the stuff he didn't say, and my answer was "we called his name, so we knew that, and what else did we need to know?". A good friend of mine , Master Jim Baize, would tell folks that they would get two points off his score if they "bored" the judges with useless facts. ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 14:00:24 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Best Practice for Brian Brian, Sorry to here things have not worked out for you at the new school. It is often very difficult to transition from one instructor to another. As far as orgs go, there are a lot of them out there. Based on my experience, I think it would be a miracle to agree with everything and everyone in an org all the time. This is neither pro nor con for orgs, just the way I see it. You don't say what your rank is now. I think that one benefits more from crosstraining if they have an advanced rank in one style. I believe that there are a lot of things you come to understand about an art at 3rd to 4th degree that give a person a much better understanding from which to evaluate other arts. I have seen a number of people with 1st dans come through that really don't have a clear understanding of their first art let alone others from which they have picked up a technique. The result is that their further learning consists of shopping for techniques they like. I believe that you can learn arts academically, and you can take things from different arts and utilize them, but you can't expect a good instructor to teach you the "best of his or her art" by shopping around. Learning any art is the same. It takes time, practice and sweat. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:47:37 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Knife defenses > One technique that I've been taught in the past that I'm not sure I could > make work is the "kick it out of their hand". It seems to work real well if > the knife is motionless, but I have a hard time kicking a hand that's moving. > I'm kind of curious if anyone has been able to pull off a kick to a arm > as a knife defense. I gotta agree with Alain on his one. Kicking a knife out of a hand should be only a last ditch effort. While I have encountered a person or two that claimed this technique worked for them, I also met someone that won the lottery. Your feet/legs are a rather important part of your body when it comes to self defense, especially when it comes to Nike-do (Run Away!). Putting your foot up there in the area of the knife makes it more likely to get your foot or achilles or calf badly cut. Try to do much of anything after that... I personally would only attempt the foot to knife/knifehand defense if my hands/arms were pinned behind my back and I was about to get stabbed in the belly. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2001 12:51:03 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #567 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.