From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #574 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 14 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 574 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Korean for Unofficial the_dojang: Re: Self-Defense the_dojang: info on John Chapman Re: the_dojang: Bassai Forms the_dojang: Self Defense Re: the_dojang: Self Defense the_dojang: Re: Bassai the_dojang: Unofficial the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:44:04 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Korean for Unofficial << Does anyone know the Korean word for "unoffical"? I am putting together a weapons form for my own use, and I want to note that it isn't an 'offical' form to myself. Craig >> According to NTC's Korean and English Dictionary, the adj. unofficial is: pi-gong-sik-ui Yi-saeng says she has never heard this word used for forms, and that it is often used for government, etc. She doesn't really know a different word for what you are doing. Remember, the way we say and put together words, sentences and ideas in the English language don't always translate to other languages. Hope this helps you some. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:57:04 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Self-Defense << I was thinknig recently that very few people I know know anything about self defense (not necessarily martial arts) and or would know how to escape from a difficult situation if it arose. Do any or many schools in America teach self defense/martial arts, and if so is it effective? I am thinking about mentioning a school self defense class to our head teacher so any comments would be great, Thanks Louise >> Louise, Need to give a little more here. What kind of school do you belong to, what are your goals, etc. Many MA schools "say" they teach self-defense, but there are some that focus more on that area and do a much better job of it. Don't mean to be offensive, but many schools that say they teach self-defense are teaching things that will get people hurt in a real encounter. (Like saying Tae-bo is for self defense, or teaching things like kicking knives and guns out of attacker's hands, etc.) Then you have other schools that teach arts that have more of a self-defense focus, such as some Hapkido, Pentjak Silat, Kuntao, Krav Maga and other schools. You also have people like Sammy Franco, who's school focuses just on self-defense. (a lot of these kinds of instructors out there too.) Or there are programs like Peyton Quinn's RMCAT that is a short intense program on SD. Many others too, this is just a small sample of different things out there. My classes and seminars are a blend of Hapkido and other things I've picked up and used to make a very self-defense oriented program. But I still include the traditional aspects of the art as taught in Korea during the regular classes. If it's a short program like I'm teaching at the University next month, the focus is strictly on self-defense with much of it on awareness, avoidance and prevention. If it's a seminar, it depends on which seminar I'm giving, the length, who I'm giving it to, what they wanted to learn, etc. Hope this gives you a little to think about. Let me know if I can help. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:08:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: info on John Chapman Well, due to piling up bills, I have gone back to med-van driving for a while. I was doing a run in Marshfield, WI and had several hours to wait for my client to get done, so I went to the Mall nearby to do some shopping. They had some sort of doings in the middle aisle of the Mall. One of them had some great ceramic dragons. (I almost bought one. Red dragon flying and he has red crystals at the base.) I was wearing my AKF sweatjacket and the man noticed it. He started asking questions about my art and who my Grandmaster is. He don't recongize the name, I told him that my Grandmaster has several schools across the U.S. and gave him our school business card. He said they he, also, had several schools. He said he teaches an old art called, "tai". His name is John Chapman. He also said his father boxed in Madison Square Garden. Anyone have any info on him? He also said that he knows Bill Wallace and Chuck Norris real well. What makes me so curious is this...if he is who he says he is, why is he selling things in the middle of a Mall? Anyone with info on John Chapman would be real helpful. My searches in google and alta-vista did not come up with much. Just a fight promotion on tai boxing from 1999. This man says he lives in Clintonville, WI now and has a school there too. Donna ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 10:05:56 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Bassai Forms > My question is: what is the difference between Bassai So and Dae? And what > is the difference between the "Bassai" form alone and the two Bassai forms? This is what GM Hwang Kee says about "Basahee Hyung" in the 1978 printing of Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do), volume 1. 1. Name of form: Bassai 2. Origin of form's name: The original name of this form was Pal Che. Pal means "the selection of the best choice". In addition, Pal also means fast. Che means collect. Movements of this form are selected from the most famous and effective movement of So Rim Sa (a southern Chinese temple) Kwon Bup such as Sun In Dan Si Sae, Ho Bing Si Mun Sae, and Pal Ho Mee Sae. The fast, light and active characteristics of this form show the influence from So Rim Sa Kwon Bup. This then accounts for the name Pal Che. The Passai form is divided into two parts, Passai Dae (Greater Passai) and Passai So (Lesser Passai). 3. Name of Creator: The creator of passai is unknown, but this form comes from the So Rim Sa Kwon Bup style. However, since the time of tis conception, the form has been changed by the time and place of its practice and still varies from place to place. 4. Date of Creation: Mid to late 16th century. 5. Place of Creation: Ha Nam (southern area of China). 6. Total number of movements: 52 7. Characteristics of this form: There aer many movements which are fast and active and contain a succession of different postures. 8. Diagram of form's lines: (Note: a "T" is the basic diagram of the form) So, after all that typing, your question is still not addressed. :) Unless the number of movements, 52, helps out somehow. Maj. Gen Choi's 1968 volume of Taekwon-do states the TKD hyung of Bat-sai has 42 movements. Kang Uk Lee's 1998 Tang Soo Do lists Ba Sa Hee Hyung as 52 movements. So after even more typing, I'm still unable to answer your question... Seems like these two kata/hyung/poomsae/forms, even though not now in their original form, are perhaps the second oldest of the Karate-ish forms still being widely taught. The oldest perhaps being the three Naihanchis, going back ~900 years. Comments? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 13:04:02 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Self Defense In a message dated 10/14/2001 9:31:26 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Loucat101@aol.com Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 15:21:07 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Self Defense I was thinknig recently that very few people I know know anything about self defense (not necessarily martial arts) and or would know how to escape from a difficult situation if it arose. Do any or many schools in America teach self defense/martial arts, and if so is it effective? I am thinking about mentioning a school self defense class to our head teacher so any comments would be great, Thanks Louise >> Some questions: First, is this school you mention, is it a regular school or a MA school? Second, what would the student base for this class? Girls, Boys, both? Third, is this class you want to suggest, do you want to have a continual class, or an occasional seminar type class (A weekend of intense instruction) I think we need more information before we can help you. Craig ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 11:47:30 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Self Defense > I was thinknig recently that very few people I know know anything about self > defense (not necessarily martial arts) and or would know how to escape from a > difficult situation if it arose. Do any or many schools in America teach self > defense/martial arts, and if so is it effective? As others have also mentioned, what types of things are you thinking of given you mention 'not necessarily martial arts'? Things like not looking like a potential victim or defensive driving or being observant to a possible threat or ??? As for teaching 'self defense/martial arts', I think the more combat oriented arts like non-sport TKD or Hapkido or Eskrima or Silat or tactical firearms training (+ others I'm leaving out) would fall into that category. Yes, I personally think you'd find many of those to be effective. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:07:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Bassai In a message dated 10/14/2001 9:31:26 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "Dizzy S." Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2001 18:11:57 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Bassai Forms Hiya all. Jennifer asked me a good question about the Bassai forms. She noticed that my assn does two Bassai forms, Bassai So and Bassai Dae. Her school does only the Bassai Dae form. She asked me more about Bassai So. Bassai So is our 1st gup form, and I'm only a 5th gup, so it is hard for me to help. I noticed that most TSD schools only do one Bassai form, simply called "Bassai". I thought my assn was the only one who did two, till I saw Craig's post. Craig (or anyone else who does both forms), can you explain more about Bassai So? My question is: what is the difference between Bassai So and Dae? And what is the difference between the "Bassai" form alone and the two Bassai forms? Tang Soo! Dizzy 5th gup TSD www.imahq.net >> To keep confusion down in my own mind, I'm using the spelling on the Korean names from my notes. Hopefully, I won't confuse anyone....^_^ Bassahee So (Cobra pattern, Lesser) and Bassahee Tae (Cobra pattern, Greater) are mid level forms in the Han Guk Mu Sool system (We use the Tang Soo Do forms for the most part) So is about 46 movements, while Tae is about 53 movements (From Choon Bee to Baro), making them significantly longer then the Pyung Ahn series of forms. Both are more free flowing then the previous forms (The form doesn't 'mirror' itself, i.e., it doesn't have a set of techniques done in one direction, then the same set of techniques done in the opposite direction.) So and Tae are very similar to each other in the techniques used, and it's easy to see the relationship between the two. I'm guessing that the 'Bassai' form you have is either So or Tae. They start very differently from each other, so if your 'Bassai' starts either way, it is liable to be that form. (personally, I'm guessing it's So.) Please note that this the way I was taught -- Your instructor may teach a slightly different version. So Starts in Choon Bee, then the hands come together, left hand over the right fist. The hands come up to about chin level, so it looks like you're saluting, inhaling as the hands come up. Once the hands reach chin level, you step back with the left foot into a Right Front Stance (RFS), executing a right inside to outside block (A'nesor Bakooroh ma kee), followed by a left outside to inside block (B'akesor anooroh ma kee), exhaling forcefully during these two techniques. The left foot steps forward into a Left Forward Stance (LFS), executing a left inside to outside block (A'nesor Bakooroh ma kee), followed by a right outside to inside block (B'akesor anooroh ma kee). The Form goes from there. Tae, on the other hand, starts with the hands in the same position (left hand over right fist) at the belt level, but you turn your body (keeping the balls of your feet in the same spot and using them as a pivot point). You then push off the left foot and jump forward, landing in a crossed stance (left foot behind right) executing a right backfist to the face. then turning 180 to the left, step forward with the left foot into a LFS, (LFS), executing a left inside to outside block (A'nesor Bakooroh ma kee), followed by a right outside to inside block (B'akesor anooroh ma kee). The Form goes from there. I hope this clears up your questions.... Craig ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 17:07:05 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Unofficial The closest I can think of would be "bee-gong-sik-ui", which means (I think) either unofficial or unapproved..J. R. West... www.hapkido.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2001 16:15:00 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #574 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.