From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #578 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 16 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 578 In this issue: the_dojang: On Forms the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest Bassai the_dojang: RE:History of Bassai the_dojang: RE: Bassai Alternative Interpretation the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #577 the_dojang: RE: Hyung Stuff (sorta) the_dojang: USKMAF Seminar in Houston the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 07:52:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: On Forms A good point on forms was made, i.e.,: Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 08:30:03 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Forms? In my opinion, hapkido students have enough to practice without adding more to it and I have often seen technique practice diminish due to a over use of forms. With that said, we teach 3 basic forms to children to develop stances and basic motion and at a black belt level we teach adults weapons forms with the sword and the staff. In hapkido, one will truly know a technique when it is practiced repetitively 1) with a partner, 2) without a partner and 3) with your eyes closed. So in essence, when you practice a technique without a partner are you not practicing a form? Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul> Response: The above hit me over the head when I read it. Always nice to have a reality check (depending upon what your reality may or may not be). While I think forms are important, I have recently placed a question mark on the importance of knowing them to advance to the next level. This pertains to me only and not a prescription,description, or conscription on use of forms (note: practicing my rap writing). Case in point is that I am taking private Arnis/Escrima lessons from a direct student of GM Cacoy Canete. We meet maybe once a week. We don't do forms. We get into flow stick drills, disarms with sticks, knives, and weapons, linear attacks and responses. Real life/self-defense situations. Admittedly, I like that approach. I also would like to combine that with a good Hapkido school that does not require forms to advance to the next belt level. For me that would be a great combo, better than the Turkey Breast and Provolone cheese slices I just had yesterday at Subway. Just my ramblin' thoughts. Ken McD... P.S. However, I do like certain forms. That discussion is saved for another list. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:54:08 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest Bassai Craig, Did I miss something when I was being taught Bassai all those years ago >>>Craig wrote>>> one side kick and two front kicks I do not know where the two front kick come from, Hhmmmm must have dozed off or something. And you are right with the Serpent theme Regards Ken ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:54:09 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE:History of Bassai Dana, You are correct and I stand with my head hung in shame. I should have acknowledged the author of that particular article. Thanks for putting the picture straight. Ken ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:23:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Bassai Alternative Interpretation Dear Craig: "... In my notes, Bassai is "cobra pattern", while other schools considered it "Breaking the Fortress..." I was wondering as I read your post and the other posts regarding Bassai if you would be interested in an alternative line of thought? My earliest experinece in MA was a number of years training in Shudokan (Orthodox Okinawan Karate) which used the Pinan kata as well as NaiFanchi (J. Tekki) One and Two. The 1st BB kata was Bassai Dai and was explained to us as meaning "the Fortress" or more correctly "to breach the fortress". The reason I mention this is that the action of breaching a fortress is, militarily, to move from a position of disadvantage to advantage. I believe that in military circles the forces necessary for dealing with an entrenched foe are recommended at 10-to-1 (some of you military buffs may want to help me out with this one). It does not take a rocket scientist to figure that when an opponent has the better ground, element of surprise, superior numbers or more sophisticated weaponry that one is essentially entering into a conflict at a disadvantage. Bassai emphasizes those methods of body use (biomechanics) which facilitate dealing with moving from a position of disadvantage to advantage. The opening movement, for instance, is often identified as a push from behind into another opponent. One recommended response is found in the block-and-strike combinations. There are also a great many manipulative responses to be found in this kata as well as the NaiFanchi Kata which address not only close-quarters combat but various grabs as well. We often seem to identify the most obvious interpretations of the hyung and thats not all bad. Now and again, though, it may be worth while to delve in the more subtle aspects as well. BTW: There a couple of folks on SABAKI who had been discussing the origins of both the NaiFanchi and Bassai kata but did not get beyond the framework of the Southern Shaolin Boxing styles. My personal opinion is that the execution of this hyung has a lot more with uniting various movements (perhaps from a range of sources)which are all recommended to accomplishing a particular task or approach rather than showcasing a single boxing approach unique to one style. Just my opinion. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "David N. Beck" Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:23:44 -0500 (CDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #577 Rich Hodder said: > >Howdy List, >Just got back to the high country from another seminar. This one in Houston >(Seabrook) TX. It was wonderful to see alot of old friends and list members >out there workin' up a sweat. As usual Master West taught a great seminar >and I think that there were quite a few folks there that learned that "being >a beginner longer" is a good thing. I ended up teaching TKD techniques for >most of the day, but I got to get some hands on Hapkido training later in >the day. I would like to thank Dr. David Collup for taking time out of his >busy schedule and helping Master West. Mac, as always, it was great to see >you. Special thanks to Mike Kuns and the crew at Iron Dragon for hosting the >seminar. Hope to see you all in March in MS (hopefully I will be more mobile >by then). >Train Hard, >Rich Seconded. This was the first chance I'd had to train with Master West, and I had a BLAST! Learned a bunch of new stuff, how far off I was on some old stuff, some things that will affect ALL my techniques, met some great people... Can't recommend highly enough. A word of advice: it was a good idea to eat a big lunch. After the chokes, swallowing was painful enough I didn't eat dinner... One regret: I did forget to ask whether the fine art of Texan Armadillo Tossing was related as has been rumored to Tibitan Gopher Throwing :) David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS SDVS-2, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 11:50:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Hyung Stuff (sorta) Dear Jere: "....In my opinion, hapkido students have enough to practice without adding more to it and I have often seen technique practice diminish due to a over use of forms....." Of course,you can say that, can't you. List members may want to know that comment comes from a guy who kept a whole school full of folks jumping for about 5 hours on Saturday. It was a great seminar and certainly one helluva warm-up for whats coming next month in Ft. Wayne! I have to tell you, Jere, that what I said earlier that day still holds for me. It is simply great to get a chance to take off my teachers' hat and just be one of the guys on the mat. Finding occasions where Black Belts can get together and compare notes or just work with each other to polish up those ragged technical edges are getting to be few and far between. Most of the Seminars are pressed to cater to the (s)lowest common denominator when it comes to attendees. The fact that you were able to find something for everyone to chew on is a tribute to the way you organized things. (Gee, I WONDER where you learned to do that? Couldn't possibly be the influence of some excellent Hapkido instruction of Mississippian Persuasion, could it? For the answer to this question meet me in Ft Wayne for M Wests' Seminar.) The more time I spend with you and M.West the more I come to appreciate the way information is dispensed at these classes. Its not so much that students are spoon-fed but that an atmosphere is developed where practitioners learn to fed themselves--- and enjoy doing it. BTW: Did Anthony ever give you the information on places to stay in Ft Wayne? Have you found anybody that wants to split a room that weekend? As far as the hyung, you mentioned, I need to share that my own personal training has undergone a shift (as revealed by a comment that M Timmerman made when I met him some weeks back). I have been spending less and less time assigning interpretations to various aspects or movements in the hyung and using them more as a conditioning opportunity. Maybe I'm just burned out on people reporting what is happening in those movements, but I find that I get a lot more benefit from the Form if I simply work to execute the moves as perfectly as I can. It helps my concentration and fights boredom to imagine actual applications if it comes to that, but I have found that the true benefit for me is simply the repeated execution of the exercise. The actual conflict, should it happen, will never go down like those moves on the training floor anyhow. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 14:22:28 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: USKMAF Seminar in Houston Glad you had a good time. I hated to miss the Houston seminar this year. I hope to be there next year. But we had a great get together with many USKMAF members and members on this list up at my place last weekend. I am glad to see Dr. Collup traveling with Master West. He is who I threw around in my demo last August and it was the first time I ever worked out with him. We both had such a great time I may throw him around this February:) I hope you ankle is doing better... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 17:46:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #578 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply.