From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #585 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 20 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 585 In this issue: the_dojang: Bassai background the_dojang: Hawaii heads-up the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #584 the_dojang: 2-Person Hyung the_dojang: machine gun drill Re: the_dojang: 2-Person Hyung the_dojang: Complete Kano... the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: JFBulson@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 13:31:12 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Bassai background << he also believes that Bassai Sho is Master Itozu's interpretation of Bassai Dai.>> Passai (Okinawan), Patsai (archaic Okinawan), Bassai (Japanese); these words are all made up of the same two hanja ideographs. Batsu, which can mean, " to pull out, to outstrip, to remove, to capture". Sai, which can be interpreted as, "close, cover, block, obstruct". So based on the literal translations of the individual characters you get the sense of "removing cover or overcoming an obstruction". Its interesting to note that the character Sai is used in the Chinese word yaosai which means, "fort or fortress". These same hanja characters appear in the hyung listings of both Park, Chul-Hee's "Kang Duk Kwan Kwon Bup (1957)" and Hwang, Kee's original "Soo Balk Do Dae Kahm (1968)". Its also interesting to note that the Korean pronunciation of these characters is neither Bassai nor Bat-sai. Students of the Chung Do Kwan lineage prefer the term Pal (or Bal) Sek. I've never seen the hanja for Sek so I can't comment on that. And in the book, "So Rim Moon Hwa Sa, Kong Soo Do Pak Kwa (1975)," which includes both the hanja (Chinese based characters) and the hangul (Korean phonetics) the pronunciation appears to be Bal Chae. On Okinawa there are many variants of the Passai forms: Tawada-Passai, Ishimine-Passai, Oyadomari-Passai, Kyan-Passai, Azato-Passai, Tomari-Passai and so on. All the variant forms whether practiced on Okinawa, Japan or in Korea can be traced to three basic lines: Matsumura-Passai Dai, Matsumura-Passai Sho, or Itosu-Passai. All systems that practice a Passai Dai are practicing a variant of Matsumura-Passai Dai. For those of you who trace their linage to either Shotokan or Shitoh-ryu your Passai Sho is Itosu-Passai. For the rest of us who trace their lineage to the Shudokan our Passai Sho is based on orthodox Matsumura-Passai Sho. <> I don't know which Bassai Sho you're referring to but the one developed by Itosu opens with several defense and disarms of opponents armed with Bong. I've seen many empty-hand forms transformed by many students into weapons forms whether we're talking about Bong, Tonfa, Nunchaku, Sai or whatever. Be well, John ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 12:45:03 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Hawaii heads-up Just a heads-up. Late last night someone you may know, of know of, from Hawaii did a number of searches on our open archives to see if about thirty different list subscribers had recently posted to the_dojang. Be advised and forewarned... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:23:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #584 To Dizzy about hyung. The Tang Soo Do forms were learned by Grandmaster Hwang Kee from a book on Okinawan Karate (probably by Gichin Funakoshi). He freely admits this in his book the "History of the Moo Duk Kwan". Even Funakoshi's versions of the originally Okinawan kata/hyung were not as they were originally taught on Okinawa. That is the reason that Tang Soo Do hyung more closely resemble Shotokan than they do Shorin-Ryu or Shito-Ryu. I am a 2nd dan in Tang Soo Do and have been studying it for about 15 years. I have also studied Matsubayashi-Ryu(Shorin-Ryu) and Okinawan Kempo extensively. There are chinese forms in Tang Soo Do as it was originally taught and as it is still taught by the Korea Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan Society. They are SoRim Jang Kwan (Shaolin Long Fist) and Tae Guk Ghuan (Tai Chi Chuan or Grand Ultimate Fist). Grm Hwang Kee probably learned these during his tenure in China under Master Yang. Also if you want a book or two on Tang Soo Do Hyung check out Grandmaster Kang Uk Lee's book "Tang Soo Do The Ultimate Guide to the Korean Martial Art", "Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do)" by Grm Hwang Kee or "Karate-Do Kyohan: The Master Text" by Gichin Funakoshi. "Karate-Do Kyohan" is the master text of Shotokan and I think you will find for Tang Soo Do as well. Most other Tang Soo Do books are very expensive and authored by folks who are not as knowledgeable in the subject. Hope this helps! Take care and God Bless! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: JFBulson@aol.com Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:35:02 EDT Subject: the_dojang: 2-Person Hyung <> Park, Chul-Hee's book, "Kang Duk Won Kwon Bup (1957) lists four Hyung that were to be practiced as 2-person sets. Below is the way these Hyung are listed in his book. Tojo San, Kong Kyuk Hyung, Mak Ki Hyung Dan Kwon Kong Kyuk Hyung Dan Kwon Mak Ki Hyung Chang Kwon Kong Kyuk Hyung Chang Kwon Mak Ki Hyung Pal Ki Kwon Kong Kyuk Hyung Pal Ki Kwon Mak Ki Hyung Kong Kyuk means offense and Mak Ki is defense. Although this is listed as Tojo San in GM Park's book I have found this form written as Doju San on three independent dojang listings. One was a Kang Duk Won dojang and the other two were Chang Moo Kwan derivatives. I've come across two ways to translate Doju San. One is "Run and Scatter" and the other is "Escape through the Mist". GM Park's book is not much help here because Tojo San was listed in hangul, not hanja. Also, it appears that there is only one side practiced in the states today. I've tried to contact others that maintain GM Yoon, Byung-In's heritage, but it seems those who still practice the form are all practicing the same side. Dan Kwon is "Short Fist". It appears that this form is being practiced differently by two separate groups. One group practices it as a solo Hyung and the other group a 2-person set. Although the interpretations of some of the technique is different in each group you can tell by the pattern and unique closing movements that they are definitely related. Chang Kwon is "Long Fist". Both sides of this form are done pretty much the same way by everybody I've seen do it. I've come across two different sets of hanja for Pal Ki Kwon. One can be translated as "Eight Cavalry's Fist and the other as "Eight Flags Fist". An interesting note here is that historically both these names appear to be a reference to the Eight Flag Armies of Northern China. My teacher, Hong, Sung-Hyun, has said that all these forms were part of a Manchurian system called "Eight Flags Kempo". I've been researching that lead and its variants for 20 years and have had little luck to date in finding the source of these Northern Chinese Hyung. I am in constant search of anyone willing to share whatever knowledge they have of GM Yoon's legacy, whether you're Chang Moo Kwan, Kang Duk Won, or any of the other related arts. My sole purpose is to preserve whatever is left of GM Yoon's heritage before its completely lost and forgotten, like so many others. Be well, John ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 16:16:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: machine gun drill Training drill... One person stands next to a wall with his/her left hand on the wall. Raise the right leg to a chamber position and execute ten kicks to a pad held by your partner; perhaps roundhouse, sidekick or hook. Then switch to the other side. After finishing, switch roles and the partner does the same. Ten sets for a total of 100 kicks per leg. Then do 5 sets of 20 kicks, 4 sets of 25, 2 sets of 50 and then one last set of 100. 500 kicks per leg. Repeat as needed... Have fun. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 17:00:12 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: 2-Person Hyung > < > Can you tell us more about the 2-person sets? > > Ray Terry>> > > > Park, Chul-Hee's book, "Kang Duk Won Kwon Bup (1957) lists four Hyung that > were to be practiced as 2-person sets. Below is the way these Hyung are > listed in his book. Can you give the first couple of moves for both sides of one of these 2-person sets? I'm trying to form a mental picture here... i.e. are they like a 2-person Judo Kata or like Wing Chun sticky-hands practice (more of a two person drill) or actually two people doing a formal and well-defined pattern of attack and block techniques or ???? Thx. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 18:18:19 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Complete Kano... To Alain, looking for The Compete Kano Jiu Jitsu... check out http://dogbert.abebooks.com/abe/BookSearch prices from $90 to $195 for that title. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2001 19:28:38 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #585 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. 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