From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 22 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 589 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Hawaii heads-up the_dojang: Culture stuff, was Small stuff the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #588 the_dojang: Yes or no ? the_dojang: RE: Punch and strike namenclature and forms the_dojang: RE: Chinese Roots Stuff the_dojang: RE:Southern Hospitality the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #588 Re: the_dojang: RE: Chinese Roots Stuff the_dojang: The other list,,, Mike's problem the_dojang: Gm Ji seminar still scheduled in Tampa ??? the_dojang: Your Minutia vs Their Minutia the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #587 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jon David Payne" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:02:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hawaii heads-up All List Members, It's amazing how some people will never let a conflict end. If anyone has a problem with this type of person harassing them my advice is to ignore him/her. I had mistakenly thought this type of behavior had ended long ago. Now that I have graduated the Police Academy I will turn more of my attention to posting instead of just lurking. I think I can thank our friend from Hawaii for the motivation to get more involved with our excellent, educational, and friendly list. Thank you, Jon David Payne ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 7:44:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Culture stuff, was Small stuff > "..... Rand McNally, a U.S. map company, has started to use both "East Sea" > and "Sea of Japan" in its most recently published maps..." . > >Whhheee-eewww. Thank, Gawd. I have been REAL concerned about this. From the FAQ sent to every new subscriber: Q: What type of messages belong on this distribution list (in priority order)? A: For The_Dojang list: - Korean martial arts - Korean martial sports - Korean MA history - Asian martial arts - Martial arts - Seminar/tourny announcements - Korean culture Sorry (Not!) for trying to stay on topic and inform folks on issues of interest to many in Korea. Perhaps we need to start a new list entitled "topics that Bruce thinks are worthy of discussion", ehh??? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Donnla Nic Gearailt Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:05:45 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #588 >From: Ray Terry >Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 7:16:41 PDT >Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Numbers stuff > >> "...Remember 9-11!..." >> >> BTW: Does anyone remember the flight number of the civilian jet airliner >> that the US Armed Forces shot down during the Persian Gulf War? It was a >> little while before the Locherbee bombing and I think between 200 and 300 >> men, women and children went down with the plane with no survivors. > >Or the KAL flight over the Soviet Union? 007. How about the TWA flight? 80 >0. ??? I was under the impression that TWA 800 just exploded without a bomb on board. Or did I miss something? Donnla. - ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Donnla Nic Gearailt Computer Laboratory, William Gates Building Graduate Student JJ Thompson Avenue, Cambridge CB3 OFD, U.K. tel: +44-1223-763688 http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~dbn20/ "An eyelash! How could you be so careless!" - Jude Law, Gattaca ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 9:00:40 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Yes or no ? > ??? I was under the impression that TWA 800 just exploded without a bomb on > board. Most say yes, some say no. ??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:29:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Punch and strike namenclature and forms Ray, I am playing catch up, so others may have already responded. We use the same terminology, slightly different romanization for punch and strike. We also use "kyong kyuck" which I believe roughly translates as attack. In drills we usually specify low, middle or high level,(ha dan, choong dan or sang dan). We also specify the attacking weapon usually for things other than forefist. We also usually specify target when working with partners or with application, ie solar plexus or groin, ect (myung chi or ko hwan). Also wanted to let everyone know that I have appreciated the posts lately on forms, particularly bassai, the higher old forms and those with Chinese origin and two person forms. Illona, I believe that Funakoshi wrote in Katate-do Kyohan about changing the name of the Niahanchi forms to Tekki, at the same time he did the same thing with several other Okinawan forms. I believe he did this for the same reasons he changed the Kanja for Karate from Chinese Hand to Empty Hand. I am surprised no one has written about the possibility of some of the Okinawan forms having been brought from China, or derived from systems brought from China. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 10:44:59 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Chinese Roots Stuff Dear Dizzy, David, Ray, John etc., etc., Sorry its taken so long to get back to the conversation. I was waiting for a kind of natural break, and to get a few things organized. I should have remembered that I cannot not depend on "natrual breaks" in the conversation, and that I will never in my life ever be truly organized. That said I wanted to throw out a couple of comments on the hyung discussion. Before anything else, many thanks for the additional information on the Japanese kata especially that great information on the etimology of the term "bassai". I hope noone feels slighted if I shift a bit from the Japanese to the Chinese. Its not that I don't think that the Japanese is important, only that I think there is a lot less that has been shared about the Chinese contributions to the Korean traditions. A good example is the material that was mentioned by Dizzy about GM Hwang Kee borrowing from Okinawan and Japanese traditions to supplement TSD. For myself, personally, I would rather take a closer look at the "SORIM JANG KWAN" (Shaolin Long Fist) and the "TAE KUK CHUAN" (Tai Chi Chuan). For instance. 1) Is the Shaolin Long Fist represented by the hyung the traditional (pre-WU SHU) or modern (WU SHU) version? To determine this I suspect we would need to know when the hyung was organized compared to the efforts by the PRC efforts to develop standardized Chinese Boxing. Is this information in the book that was cited (by Kang Uk Lee)? The problem I see is found in books like Dr Yang, Jwing-ming who has sold his book on SHAOLIN LONG FIST KUN-FU only to reveal in the earliest chapters that what he is really writing about is a composite art which takes pieces from a variety of Northern Chinese arts. 2) Is the Tai Chi brought back by GM Kee the Yang or Chen style? I assume that it is not only because of the name of the teacher cited but also because Chen Tai Chi had undergone an eclipse during the 20th century and had only barely been resurrected quite recently (see TAI CHI magazine this month). It would be interesting, I think, to compare the movements of GM Kee to the traditional Chen 72 Form or perhaps the "Cannonball" form for similarities. Has anyone compared the TSD material to any of the Yang Tai Chi stuff? 3) You folks are driving me crazy with the variety of Chaun Fa styles. So far I had been dealing with Northern Long Fist, Northern Praying Mantis, Baqua/Hsing I, Northern Eagle Claw, and some variant of Chinese Boxing touted as originating with the Muslim population. Now we have a Boxing form from Manchuria. How about a trade? I tell you what I know about Eagle Claw and you tell me what you know about this Manchurian style? This also will help answer Rays' question about the 2-man hyung. I recently had a chance to visit a school affiliated with GM Lily Lau Eagle Claw Chaun Fa out of California. The art traces its origins back to Gen. Yue Fei (1103-1142) of the Sung Dynasty. Rather relate all the whole history and lineage here take a look at www.eagleclaw.gr and M Laus' www.tigerclaws.com. A couple of things that Hapkido practitioners will find facinating is the near identical nature of the locks, throws and pins compared to those commonly attributed to only the Daito-ryu influence. The Eagle Claw art teaches 3 sets 1.) Hang Kuen Sup Lo (Walking Fist) 2.) Lin Kuen Ng Sup Lo (Combination Fist), and 3.) 108 Eagle Claw Khum La which is a hyung of 108 Chin Na or grabbing techniques of which only the first 72 are taught in the general student population. I watched the first half of the 72 moves performed by a pair of practitioners and the two-man form looks a lot like Hapkido trasitional (or "flow") training. Attack is initiated by one partner and a defense is mounted by the other partner. The defense is only allowed to be executed half-way when it is countered by an alternate technique by the original attacker whose technique is countered by the original defender and so on---alternately. The alternation continues until all 72 techniques are done. I understand that GM Lau moves in some rather rarified circles and only with individuals who practice pre-Wu Shu material. She is expected to be in Chicago for a month in February conducting on-going training. Needless to say you can probably guess where I and my notebook and recorder plan on being in February. Now, if only I can get the same great leads on the other styles of Chinese boxing which influenced Korean traditions! I understand that the Praying Mantis organization out of Florida is authentic pre-Wu Shu art. Any confirmations? 5. Does anybody know if the books cited previously can still be had? In addition to the books by Lee and Park is anyone aware of any other recommended published material? Have any of the Kuk Sool people have anything to add? How about the HwaRang folks? Does anyone have anything to say or recommend about making it easier to correlate the names of arts and hyung between the Chinese and the Korean which might make it easier to know whether one hyung/form name and another are in fact the same? I think I am directing this last question specifically at John who did such a great job listing the various hyung in his post. I am wondering if a name such as PAL KI KWON couldn't have some relationship to the Korean SHIP PAL GAE, as well as the Chinese SHI PA SHOU or 18 Monk Fist. OK, that's enough. My head hurts. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "J. R. West" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:14:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Southern Hospitality Sharon: I'm glad you made it back in one piece, and on behalf of my students and myself, I want to thank you for coming out to the dojang and playing with us for an evening. It is really great to see someone whose basic motion is as good as yours, and it was very apparent to me that you have been well trained. My wife (meanest woman on the planet) sends her regards and apologizes for not being able to make it out to meet you, but hopes to see you in March at our HapKiDo bash. If anyone happens to be in the Jackson, MS area, please make it a point to stop by here and visit. I am also looking forward to seeing some DD members either at the seminar in MD on the 3rd of November or in Ft. Wayne, IN on the 10th......J. R. West www.hapkido.com > From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 02:37:42 EDT > Subject: the_dojang: Southern Hospitality > > While visiting in the South last week, I had the opportunity to attend one of > Master West's classes. I appreciated the warm welcome and enjoyed meeting > him and training with his students. If ya'll (or is the plural, all ya'll?) > are in his area, it will be worth your time to plan a stop at his school. > > Thanks again, Master West! > > Sharon ------------------------------ From: "Matthew Fisher" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:17:58 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #588 I would like to know if someone could tell me some effective leg stretches, i am trying to do the splits, toes pointing forwards one(HARD ONE!) and i have got so far but i cant seem to go any further even if i stretch to the limit every day? _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:40:00 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Chinese Roots Stuff > 2) Is the Tai Chi brought back by GM Kee the Yang or Chen style? Did you mean GM Hwang here??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:07:35 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: The other list,,, Mike's problem Ken you are absolutely right,,I should have known better, I was under the impression that I would check out all the neat Hapkido stuff on the "other list", since the DD list was getting a little slow,,, I contacted said individual and was put back on,,, I am not complaining or whining about it, I got what I deserved for compromising,,he stated that he didn't mind me being on the DD list and reading posts,,just that he was boycotting the list and wouldn't want anyone to post on there... once I wrote a post and mentioned that I didn't think South Korea should go out of their way to cater to North Korea and I also stated that thousands of American and South Korean lives were lost in the struggle in the 50's and that since my father was in this conflict I didn't see the reasoning behind bending over backwards for the North Koreans,, etc... well that was it,, I was gone,, Ken is right,, I got what I deserved,, I'm just letting you guys know what the score is on the other board. Oh by the way,,, I think that I was the only Hapkido practitioner on the whole list,,,numerous times I tried to get some debates going with Hapkidoists,, and there were none,, basically that list has digressed to just newspaper posts from asia being copied and pasted onto the list by "said individual" in a feeble attempt to keep it afloat,,, there were no debates or threads of any interest at all,numerous times I recieved mail that had nothing but posts from "said individual" with no responses from anyone else on the list? Most of these posts were just asian newspaper articles. Kind of like Howard Hughes in his latter years!! I would rather stay on the DD Digest and argue with Ken, Rudy and Bruce,,, at least we can debate and still stay civil and not try to kick each other off of the list,,etc... Michael Tomlinson (exiled more than Napolean) **************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:16:38 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Gm Ji seminar still scheduled in Tampa ??? Rick, Is your weekend Hapkido seminar in FLA with Gm Ji still on for the Veterans' Day weekend? Just checking. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 12:35:20 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Your Minutia vs Their Minutia Dear Mr. Sims, >... For each of the one or two genuinely nice guys I ran into there were six or seven bozo-s who apparently make a hobby of straining to impress people with their facility in Japanese sword minutia. When I did not demonstrate suitable awe you would be amazed at how quickly their interest in me evaporated....< You complaining about some else's minutia caused me to laugh so hard that I injured myself - was that your intention? >BTW: Does anyone remember the flight number of the civilian jet airliner >that the US Armed Forces shot down during the Persian Gulf War? It was a >little while before the Locherbee bombing and I think between 200 and 300 >men, women and children went down with the plane with no survivors.< When you compare an accidental tragedy with an intentional act, you expose your perverted "America Always Wrong" perspective. Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: foxdragon@cuttingedge.net Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 14:30:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #587 > > From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us > Subject: the_dojang: The other list "snip" it is like as soon as I wrote a post > that some people didn't like I was instantly kicked off of their board,,, > wow,, you know I am an American true and thru,, and this seems to me to be > something akin to communism,,, at least on this board you guys listen and > debate,, isn't that what freedom of speech is all about? One word,,, > EGOTISM As much as I hate to continue this conversation, our dear friend from Hawaii has forgotten one thing. We have the right to chose. I made my choice a long time ago and don't regret it. I regret however, that I lost a good and intelligent friend because we have to chose between one man or another. If it means not talking by e-mail to a man I've never met or have no ties to whatsoever in the tkd world, so be it. Even if you have ties, he is not as powerful as you all think. He just makes himself to be. I've grown bitter over the fact of how people make tkd look sometimes. This rivalry and sometimes complete hate. We are at war now because of hate. If he cannot learn how to get along with others, let him be. This conversation is ended. Those of you on both lists, you have a choice. I only hope you've made the right one. How you want to run you life is your choice. Donna ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:17:27 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!