From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #590 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 22 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 590 In this issue: the_dojang: New BB :) the_dojang: Re: Okinawa / Japan the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 the_dojang: Korean ethnic background the_dojang: Gm Ji seminar the_dojang: RE: A.A.W stuff the_dojang: speculation the_dojang: News from Korea Re: the_dojang: speculation the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #581- More Bassai reply the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 the_dojang: Tang So Do Forms the_dojang: worry the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Tom Marker Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:49:33 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: New BB :) Just wanted to share with the list that I received my Cho Dan promotion at the WTSDA Region 8 Championship (Even though I'm really a Region 5 guy.. shh!) I think I joined this list shortly after starting as a white belt, and it has been exteremly interesting and helpful in that time. I don't post a whole heck of a lot, but I'm always here, lurking around. Was anyone else there? Tang Soo! Tom Marker ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:07:51 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Okinawa / Japan In a message dated 10/22/2001 6:54:59 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << <<<>>> Wow. I didn't know that. Aren't they both "Japanese" styles, though? >> No, Funakoshi brought these forms over from Okinawa when he went over to Japan to show them karate ... and eventually started teaching it over there. Okinawa is Okinawa ... Japan is Japan ... just ask anyone from Okinawa or Japan ... they will tell you. :-) Illona ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:24:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 Dear Ray: "....Did you mean GM Hwang here???..." Ooopppsss. Sorry. No disrespect intended. My western mind keeps forgetting about flipping the names around. Yes. I was interested to know what Tai Chi form GM Hwang studied and whether practitioners could identify either biomechanic in their hyung. Thanks, Bruce PS: I don't have a problem with a new category of acceptable DD subjects if noone else does. May we also consider a separate division for PC and non-PC subject matter? :-) ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 13:32:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Korean ethnic background Dear List, I just had an intro call from an informed parent who had shoped my competitor in a commercial TKD school and is coming by Wed. to view our "club setting" classes. She was impressed with everything until she got the price tag. Around $800 for 6 months (for a 6 yo). She was also led to believe that the school should have a Master Instructor of Korean heritage (huh?)....and how important that was.... She and I ended our conversation with... look at what the instructor can provide you child in the way of learning and personal development. But then I guess as a second class martial arts citizen (read American) that's why my tuition is less than half the "authentic" Korean.... Anybody else running a club get this? I only hope I can provide this potential customer the level of service they are seeking regardless of my ethnic background :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:34:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Gm Ji seminar <> Ray, GM Ji is still on for Veteran's Day weekend, Nov 10-11. I hope you can still make in down to sunny Florida. The invitation is still out for the rest of the folks on the list also. V/R, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 15:42:34 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: A.A.W stuff Dear Patrick: "...When you compare an accidental tragedy with an intentional act, you expose your perverted "America Always Wrong" perspective...." I reread my post a few times and am still trying to see where I made any comparison of anything to anything. As far as I can tell I asked a simple question regarding a tragic experience in the off-chance that someone might have the info handy. However since you have (predictably) invited attention to yourself yet once again I will oblige with another "America Always Wrong" perspective. OK, History Buffs --- for Patricks weight in BS (or is that redundant?) what country sold-out Korea to the Japanese in the Treaty of Portsmouth so as to secure uncontested rights to the Phillipines as a fueling station for their Pacific fleet. Extra points if you can identify the man who assisted Dean Rusk in identifying the 38th Parallel as the dividing line between North and South Korea after WW II but PRIOR TO the Korean War. (Hint: This gentleman had to be educated as to the geographic location of Korea before he could assist in the identification of the dividing line between North and South Korea. (Source: TWO KOREAs, Chapter one). Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 06:32:58 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: speculation Ray wrote: "...target is used in the name, e.g. ... momtong yup jireugi (truck side punch). " ^^^^ My speculation: Ray, is this why the doctors are always after you? Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:58:33 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: News from Korea Master Whalen wanted me to pass this info on to the board,, he is having problems getting his mail on here thru the cyber cafe in Korea, so I'll play the middle man,, Master Whalen writes: "Please let the list know I have been following it every Day Also The Following people have Been promoted . Dave Chopourian 1st Dan Dianne wall 1st Dan Maureen Cully 1st dan jose saporta 1st dan Jack Ouellette 2nd Dan Jan lumpkin 2nd dan Richard Williamson 2nd dan Ray prince 2nd dan Michael Forristall 2nd dan The test board was conducted by Grand Master Yoo,chun Hee/And Holcombe's instructor Grandmaster Kim, Nam Jae also GrandMaster Won,Kil soo and My friend Master Lee,Jung Hee pass the word ." I would like to add my own personal congratulations to these Hapkido brothers and sisters of mine,, I have worked out with a few of these folks and I can tell you that they are hard chargers and love Hapkido. A special congrats goes out to Mike Forristall who may be one of the funniest men in Hapkido,,, hey Mike have you heard any good Irish jokes lately? Have a safe trip home guys... and a big HAP KI!!! Michael Tomlinson **************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 16:57:15 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: speculation > "...target is used in the name, e.g. ... momtong yup jireugi (truck side > punch). " > > ^^^^ > My speculation: > > Ray, is this why the doctors are always after you? That, along with excessive wine, women and song... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Jung Su Dave" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:22:45 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #581- More Bassai reply Yes Craig, that is Grandmaster Myung Seok Seo. Our school uses several of version of the forms. He Still lives in the DC area. From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:25:52 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #579 << Additionally If you train under Grandmaster Seo. His Bassai Sho is completely (and I do mean Completely) different from the other Bassai Sho's out there. >> Would that be Grandmaster Myung Seok Seo? He is the Grandmaster who taught my Headmaster the Tang Su Do forms we use in Han Guk Mu Sool, including Bassahee So. He lives in the Washington DC area, or did the last I heard.... Craig ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:51:15 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 On the subject of Okinawan, Japanese and Korean forms. The Okinawan forms that Funakoshi Sensei changed he changed because he wanted to make them easier. This was so he could easily teach them to grade school children and military basic trainees. This was not his idea originally anyway. This originated with his teacher Anko Itosu Sensei. Many Okinawans were furious that he changed the kanji and the forms. Please borrow or purchase Shoshin Namamine Sensei's book "The Essence of Okinawan Karate" he makes reference to it. Many modern martial arts are derived from this school children's karate as some of the old masters on Okinawa call it. For example most of these styles teach little or no bunkai or even worse is that what they teach is highly improbable bunkai. Most of the kwan leaders studied Shotokan in Japan. As a result they studied an art that was really, please excuse the expression, dumbed down. I am not saying they were dumb. They eventually realized this I have no doubt and evolved it on their own. A lot of so-called traditional karate styles have only existed for 100 years or less. It is easily decipherable if you take time and study old pictures and manuscripts on martial art in Okinawa and China that karate, tang soo do and tae kwon do all originated in Fuchou, China and Okinawa. The folks who studied White Crane Chuan Fa mostly had connections in the Okinawan city of Naha. On Okinawa the kempo or karate that developed in Naha was called Naha-te. It was basically a combination of White Crane Kung-Fu and native Okinawan fighting arts. The chronology of style is as follows. Root style is White Crane Kung Fu to Pangainoon to Goju-Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Ryuei-Ryu and Kojo-Ryu to Isshin-Ryu. Please forgive me if I have left any out. The folks who studied Shaolin Long Fist or "Monk Fist Boxing" gravitated to or were from the city of Shuri. Thus they called it Shuri-te, later it was referred to as Shorin-Ryu (Shaolin style or method). Now to the chronology of styles. Root style is Shaolin Long Fist to Shuri-te to Shorin-Ryu, Matsubayashi-Ryu and a plethora of others to Shotokan to Tang Soo Do to Tae Kwon Do. Some composite styles of these two would be Tomari-te, Shito-Ryu, and Kyokushin. The reason we know these forms to have originated in China or Okinawa is that their are oral record, turn of the century pictures, books describing these forms and what not. None of this evidence can be found in their Japanese or Korean counterparts. I am not saying that this makes Japanese or Korean karate inferior just different. I am impressed as to how the Japanese and Koreans have evolved their karate though. Their Headmasters are to be commended. The only advantage really that Okinawan Karate has over Japanese or Korean Karate is the use of throwing, grappling, joint manipulation, and pressure point striking that are all a part of authentic Okinawan Kempo or Karate, whatever you want to refer to it as. Conversely the Korean Karate are beginning to merge hapkido concepts and techniques into one art and this is how martial art was originally. Look to the westernization of Japan to find the reason for the spliting up of the art. Westerners had Greco-Roman Wrestling. Professor Jigoro Kano redesigned Jujitsu as a sport so we have Judo. The Westerners had boxing. Itosu Sensei and Funakoshi Sensei redesigned Okinawan Kempo for sport and physical training so we now have Karate. At any rate I better stop now before I start babbling. Take care and God Bless all! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:13:35 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #589 In a message dated 10/22/2001 2:49:21 PM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 7:44:31 PDT Subject: the_dojang: Culture stuff, was Small stuff > "..... Rand McNally, a U.S. map company, has started to use both "East Sea" > and "Sea of Japan" in its most recently published maps..." . > >Whhheee-eewww. Thank, Gawd. I have been REAL concerned about this. From the FAQ sent to every new subscriber: Q: What type of messages belong on this distribution list (in priority order)? A: For The_Dojang list: - Korean martial arts - Korean martial sports - Korean MA history - Asian martial arts - Martial arts - Seminar/tourny announcements - Korean culture Sorry (Not!) for trying to stay on topic and inform folks on issues of interest to many in Korea. Perhaps we need to start a new list entitled "topics that Bruce thinks are worthy of discussion", ehh??? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> I think what Bruce was saying (As I took it -- I could be wrong) was that there was such a big deal being made over the name of a body of water, not that it was posted to the list. I kind of agree with him -- with all that is going on, why are they worried about what a large area of basicly useless H2O is called? It not like lives will be improved, or people saved. They can call it anything they want (I prefer calling it Fred, but that's my personal choice.....^_^) Thank for posting it to the list, Ray -- It just reinforces my Opinion that there's people in Governments who are always looking for a justification for spending the citizen's tax money....^_^ ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:21:19 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Tang So Do Forms Sincee we've seen a maked difference in the background of the Bassai forms, What about the other TSD forms? For Example, the Nai-ahn Chi series of forms we use (3 of them), they are refered to as the "Iron Horse" forms. They are complex, intense, and are use to teach how to make the body heavy and strong. I have compared the form to fighting ten guys in an elevator -- The only stance in all three forms that is used is the Horse stance, and every movement is a strike or block. Do the TSD members have the same take on these forms? Craig ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 17:57:48 PDT Subject: the_dojang: worry > -- with all that is > going on, why are they worried about what a large area of basicly useless > H2O is called? The way I look at it, even tho I'm sure no one really cares... :) While I worry about the war against the terrorists, I can still worry about dropping a few pounds. When it comes to worry and concern, most seem to have the ability to be multi-threaded instead of just single-threaded (there is the computer nerd in me coming out). Back to KMA? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 18:03:13 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #590 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!