From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #592 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 23 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 592 In this issue: the_dojang: Good praying mantis in Chicago (for Bruce!) and other stuff the_dojang: Re: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #590 Tang So Do Forms the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #581- More Bassai reply the_dojang: Stuck the_dojang: Korean Lineage and Price Re: the_dojang: Stuck the_dojang: Re: Risk the_dojang: RE: Back to KMA the_dojang: Hope I win the_dojang: Martial Child Abuse?? the_dojang: Re: Niahanchi the_dojang: Thanks Mike T the_dojang: Bitterness has ceased the_dojang: Conflicts ending ? the_dojang: the cold stuff in AZ the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:42:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Good praying mantis in Chicago (for Bruce!) and other stuff > the "TAE KUK CHUAN" (Tai Chi Chuan). For instance. How about "t'ae geuk kweon" as the spelling? > 1) Is the Shaolin Long Fist represented by the hyung the traditional > (pre-WU SHU) or modern (WU SHU) version? How about differentiating it into wushu (modern sport since 1950s), gongfu ("achieved merit" - Cantonese slang), guoshu ("national art" in Nationalist China from 1920s to 1950s), and ancient wushu? > 3) You folks are driving me crazy with the variety of Chaun Fa styles. As it should be Bruce! ;) Remember there's a whole heaping helping of quanfa styles out there, and then of course there are the variations internal to the style depending upon the instructor, the local history and the needs of the students. Trying to nail down a description of the Chinese arts is a Sisyphean task. That said, I suggest you check out the Chicago Aikikai. They teach Ueshiba Aikido and have some nice weapon skills (similar to the ones you already do, but It would give you some good people to train with), but last I heard, Peter and Hau Kum Kneip were teaching taijiquan and Praying Mantis saber there on Sunday mornings. The saber is a really nice style (Guoshu period). And of course, the Aikikai has one of the prettiest dojos around! > listing the various hyung in his post. I am wondering if a name such as PAL > KI KWON couldn't have some relationship to the Korean SHIP PAL GAE, as > well as the Chinese SHI PA SHOU or 18 Monk Fist. The inspiration for "p'algwaekweon" is probably the Chinese "baguaquan" (although the recent books on "baguazhang" are more useful for hapkidoists, and in fact are written by a Korean expert in the subject). Shipp'algi or 18 weapons is related directly to Chinese traditional weapon styles. I tend to view 18 Monk Fist as an outgrowth from the same source, rather than as a predecessor for the various Chinese fighting styles. In reply to Bruce's gadfly, Patrick the L: > When you compare an accidental tragedy with an intentional act, you expose > your perverted "America Always Wrong" perspective. Perverted? Huh? I think you need to pull back just a little here Patrick. Yes, their terrorist attacks are worse than our accidents, but we should remember the victims we kill as much as we remember the crimes against us. Or to put it a bit more positive spin on it, "forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those against us." I think it is essential for America to maintain sensitivity to the feelings of others. We lead the world, and we can either lead it to greater democracy and equality, or to greater bloodshed. One way or another, we influence a great deal of the people in the world, and when I hear college freshmen tell me that "if we have to kill 300 innocent civilians to get one of those bastards, we should do it," I start thinking we may have taken a wrong turn somewhere. Before I get TOO many flames, let me also mention that it seems like our military is doing a good job, although we really won't know until several years down the road. Relating that all back to Korean martial arts, I think the question is how one can be a kunja ("superior person" or "true gentleperson") when someone has a different set of ethics. Is the answer that we should to our own selves be true? Or do pragmatic demands simply take precedence over all else? Take care Folks, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:32:04 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #590 Tang So Do Forms A couple of responses to posts here.... In a message dated 10/23/2001 8:41:21 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 04:45:02 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #590 Tang So Do Forms Craig, Yes, we have the same three Naihanchi hyungs in our school and we show the students the importance of the hyung i.e. horse stance for low centre of gravity. I also like to teach it on a low wooden bench about 9 inches high after they have been learning it for a few months, it is amazing how many students lose their balance while doing it on the bench. My old instructor told me that it meant iron horse and that you are fighting/defending with your back against a wall that is why it is only the left and right moves in it. has anyone else got a different view I wonder. regards Ken Shinson Tang Soo Do >> Back against the wall? You mean all the strikes are to the left or right? The footwork is all to the left or right - I think we can agree to that -- and the form is done on a straight line. Maybe I'm misunderstanding something in your description.... As I leaned these forms (The forms that GM Seo taught HM Gauthier, who taught them to us), not only are the strikes to the left or right, but there are strikes to the front and rear (Elbows mostly, with a couple of punches over the shoulder thrown in). The opponents are all around you, and you're fighting in an enclosed place, either by nature (An elevator cage), or by happenstance (Thirty thugs surrounding you) There are sequences, especially in Nai-Ahn Chi Sam Dan (third Iron Horse Form) in which you are striking someone behind you, then in front of you, then to the side of you in a rapid-fire type motion. Sometimes while you driving an elbow into the guy behind you, you're head-butting someone in front of you. Is this the same as yours? I beginning to see that even the same forms are taught very differently. To be fair, the only versions of the TSD forms I know of are the ones that came down from GM Seo.... From: "Dizzy S." Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 23:18:14 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: TSD forms << From what I can see, yes. The Naihanchi forms are very "intense" looking. They are all in horse stance (we also have three Naihanchi forms), and a lot of blocks and strikes. It looks tiring to me lol. I like the elevator thing lol. Tang Soo! Dizzy 5th gup www.imahq.net >> Every movement is a strike of some sort (At least, that is what I was taught) There's foot sweeps, stomps, head-butts, elbows, backfists, hammerfist, and other good stuff. Nai-Ahn Chi Sam Dan has upwards of 70 moves, and is my favorite form. It's not the light supple movement of the Bassahee forms, but is almost pure power and strength. If the Bassahee forms are like the Cobra, the Nai-Ahn forms are like a bull Elephant. With the exception of the foot sweeps and knee strikes, they are almost all hand techniques. They are intense, hard to learn, but satisfying once you master them..... Craig ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 10:39:13 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #581- More Bassai reply In a message dated 10/22/2001 7:34:05 PM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: "Jung Su Dave" Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 19:22:45 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #581- More Bassai reply Yes Craig, that is Grandmaster Myung Seok Seo. Our school uses several of version of the forms. He Still lives in the DC area. From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 00:25:52 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #579 << Additionally If you train under Grandmaster Seo. His Bassai Sho is completely (and I do mean Completely) different from the other Bassai Sho's out there. >> Would that be Grandmaster Myung Seok Seo? He is the Grandmaster who taught my Headmaster the Tang Su Do forms we use in Han Guk Mu Sool, including Bassahee So. He lives in the Washington DC area, or did the last I heard.... Craig >> How many of his forms do you use? Another question: Does anyone know why the TSD forms GM Seo teaches are somewhat different from other TSD instructors? Personal preferences, he learned a different form of TSD, or something else? Craig ------------------------------ From: mtomlins@mail.volusia.k12.fl.us Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:00:06 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Stuck Sorry Ray but I guess you are in the same boat as my wife,,, you are just stuck with me!!! Michael Tomlinson **************************************************************************** This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager at administrator@volusia.k12.fl.us. **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 08:08:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Korean Lineage and Price <> Charles, I may have strayed from your original post on Korean ethics but here goes. I replied to a post a while ago on a subject concerning training costs and it seemed that yet again I opened a hornets nest. I don't charge a lot for my students, 2.50 UK pounds for a senior for a 2 hour lesson (I think that's around $4 per class) and 1.25 for a dragon and 1.50 for a junior. The money that is taken in goes straight back into the school funds after the hall hire has been paid. I found because of the price difference between other schools in my area that we see parents amazed at how low we keep the costs. The same goes with supplying their do bhoks, we add 1.00 to cover postage + the trade price. We now have a big school with a number of classes being regularly full and are possibly looking at putting a waiting list on some of them, we also now have a very healthy back account which all my students benefit by i.e. new training equipment, social evenings, demo, visiting masters, the list goes on. Please note this is how I run my school and it is not intended to upset anyone who is trying to make it their living, I am strictly part-time as are all my instructors. <> Ken, I would say if your bank account is healthy you have mastered both marketting and the overhead to gross revenue ratio game. Bravo! As a humble suggestion you might factor in the value of your time spent running the school/teaching = time away from family and compensate yourself fairly, otherwise you are paying to teach (IMHO)...not that's a bad thing, just something to acknowledge... <> We have joked from time to time when confronted with the "Original Korean Lineage" that maybe our clients would be more at ease if we went to a local nursing home and borrowed an elderly Asian gentleman to sit in the corner on a mound of pillows and just look wise. Of course there would have to be rules. No one could talk to him except our master instructor and our wise man wouldn't be allowed to actually speak except through his interpreter our master instructor. What do you think?<> I like it, of course I would have to change all my ads to say Supreme Ultimate Grand Being 13th Dan Master Takeyourdo is our head instructor .... <> I'd say this is a fairly common occurrence. In business one usually markets what they have to sell, using whatever advantage they can. So if you're Korean, you market that. If you're not Korean, you should find a way to market that. And always remember to insert a bit of FUD (Fear,Uncertainty and Doubt) about your competitors. :) A problem can come up when as a club you really don't think of yourself as a business and thus may not market yourself as aggressively as your competition does. <> Well said Ray, actually my rural-suburban clients like the fact that I am local, American, and reasonably priced. I think this particular school (unknowingly) sold my newest prospect on martial arts, but at someother school (mine) based on their arrogance on the race issue, and the price (related to their overhead). Their loss is my gain. For those of you that remember my "garage band" dojang posts last year, we have sinced moved to leasing a full sized gymnasium two nites a week. At 10 students we meet the overhead for all expenses including a limited, but regular (and productive) marketing program. We even sprung to have a guest USKMAF Master (Rich Hodder) come out and assist us with our annual seminar. As to Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt about competitors I just KISS (keep it simple). I invite prospects to try a class at no obligation and recommend they run from anyone who asks them to sign anything without the same courtesy Train with Jung Do in your hearts, Th rest is commentary, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 8:48:08 PDT Subject: Re: the_dojang: Stuck > Sorry Ray but I guess you are in the same boat as my wife,,, you are just > stuck with me!!! > Michael Tomlinson You know what they say, Cheer up! things could be worse. So I cheered up and you know what, things did get worse... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "C. Sears" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:43:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Risk > > From: Ray Terry > Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 20:35:29 PDT > Subject: the_dojang: Risk > > Only those who risk going too far will ever know just how far they can go. > Or as was also said: Only those willing to go out on a limb are successful in getting the apples. ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:01:17 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Back to KMA Dear David: "..... On Okinawa the kempo or karate that developed in Naha was called Naha-te. It was basically a combination of White Crane Kung-Fu and native Okinawan fighting arts. The chronology of style is as follows. Root style is White Crane Kung Fu to Pangainoon to Goju-Ryu, Uechi Ryu, Ryuei-Ryu and Kojo-Ryu to Isshin-Ryu..." I always get screwed up at this point. From what I understand the Chinese Ming Dyn (1368 - 1644) had established an embassy on Okinawa in 1393 which I am currently trying to identify as an attempt to address the commercial efforts of the Japanese entrepeneurs (AKA: Japanese "pirates" or "Wa-ko"). From all that I have been able to understand the nature of Chinese martial tradition would have been distinctly "northern" in quality which is to say that the focus of power generation in a given technique would have been in the pelvis or hip girdle. The epicenter of this development (for better or worse) has always been ascribed to the Shaolin temple of Hunan province. Now from what I understand, with the collapse of the Ming and the invasion of China by the Ching (Manchu) various resistance movements developed which also had their epicenter at a Shaolin temple albeit in the South at Fukei.( the northern temples have been pretty much trashed for subversive activities against the Ching). The need for fast, effective skill borne of short training periods resulted in a "southern" quality in which the focus of power generation in the techniques was more to the shoulder girdle and upper torso. As you say, White Crane seems to have been the mainstay of this development with a variety of other styles such as Wing Chun, Hung Gar, White Eyebrow, Black Tiger, etc coming out of this same tempestuous time. I share all of this because a mainstay of the research that I am doing is to consider that Okinawa became institution for the showcasing of Okinawan To-de and Southern Chinese Form with a heavier focus on upper body technique. I suggest that Korea became a showcase for an amalgamation of Korean wrestling and Northern Chinese Form and its large catalogue of grappling and leg maneuvers. Where the Japanese took in most of the Okinawan arts and developed Kempo and Karate, the Northern Chinese Forms introduced through China (Chen Yuanbin also known as Chen Gempei; 1587 - 1662) and Korea caused the Japanese to produce Kempo and yawara ("ju-jutsu"). Of course, as we all know, Korea has had one or two problems over the last couple of centuries and so the it may be a bit more difficult to track this all down than it has been for tracking the traditions through Okinawa and Japan. How does this overall characterization fit with what you understand about the development of Okinawan/Japanese traditions? BTW: One other thing to listkas: There has been a lot of talk in some circles about how the Korean palace guards, Korean nobles, and other Korean elites had exclusive exposure to exotic fighting Forms and techniques. If anyone has been able to document any such relationships it would help if you would pass it along to me, k? Currently I am working on locating English translations of the some 660 directives that were passed during the Kabo Reforms (1894-1896). There were apparently a significant body of reforms passed instituting a Military and a Police academy at the time. I think it would be interesting to know where the reformers mandated that their weapons and SD material come from for educating the military and the police. Both Japan and China had a presence in Korea at the time. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:01:02 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Hope I win Dear Mr. Sims, >OK, History Buffs --- for Patricks weight in BS (or is that redundant?) >what country sold-out Korea to the Japanese in the Treaty of Portsmouth so >as to secure uncontested rights to the Phillipines as a fueling station for >their Pacific fleet.< Let me do the research - I hope I win, I will stack it, and call it Bruce. Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Alagna, Steven M" Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:11:39 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Martial Child Abuse?? What do you think of this?? http://www.libertocracy.com/Webessays/Sports/abuse/Martial_Child_Abuse.htm Steven M. Alagna ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 14:26:41 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: Niahanchi In a message dated 10/23/2001 6:35:26 AM Pacific Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I also like to teach it on a low wooden bench about 9 inches high after they have been learning it for a few months, it is amazing how many students lose their balance while doing it on the bench. >> A few of us at the school went camping together this summer and we did our niahanchi form on anything we could find ... logs, not so tall railings ... downhill and uphill ... etc. At the school we took the big long hanging bag down and the students love to do it balanced on there. Illona ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 11:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Thanks Mike T Mike T, you noted: Response: Sorry Mike. I know your a righteous dude. No one deserves the treatment you received. Sometimes we attempt to accomodate other individuals since we think things will change. My comments were made only to corroborate treatment you and others have received. Keep postin and roastin'. You did nothing incorrectly and I was being a little self-righteous. Stay safe. Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:16:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Bitterness has ceased Jeremy, you noted: Response: Actually, my anger toward the individual (re: G) has subsided substantially. When you bury 189 people in the Pentagon who worked only a couple of yards from you, things are placed in proper perspective. I only chime in on occasion to support a few souls who may be experiencing the sting of being unfairly treated. Remember that line in Billy Jack, something like "When I see these beautiful kids like this, it just makes me go crazy..." I think Alain Burrese has the script so I know I will be corrected. You know the scene where those punks poured ice cream or flour on the young innocents in the store. Billy Jack then proceeds to wipe them out. Love those revenge flicks. See ya, Big Ken __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 12:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Conflicts ending ? Jon P, who noted: Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2001 09:02:23 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hawaii heads-up All List Members, It's amazing how some people will never let a conflict end. If anyone has a problem with this type of person harassing them my advice is to ignore him/her. I had mistakenly thought this type of behavior had ended long ago. Now that I have graduated the Police Academy I will turn more of my attention to posting instead of just lurking. I think I can thank our friend from Hawaii for the motivation to get more involved with our excellent, educational, and friendly list> Response: Jon, I seem to recall (in the inner cesspools of my mind) that I use to "conflict" with you on the KSW list or was that another person ? Then I was an angry middle aged man. Now, I am a conflict avoiding middle aged man. Will wonders never cease. Where is the Professor ? I need someone else to pick on. Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:07:28 PDT Subject: the_dojang: the cold stuff in AZ > kids like this, it just makes me go crazy..." I think Alain Burrese has > the script so I know I will be corrected. You know the scene where those > punks poured ice cream or flour on the young innocents in the store. Billy > Jack then proceeds to wipe them out. Love those revenge flicks. If you go to the courthouse in Prescott, AZ you can still see that ice cream shop across the street. Except the last time I was there it was a yogurt shop. Ray "No, I did not make a special trip just for that" Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 13:10:10 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #592 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!