From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #595 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 24 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 595 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #592 the_dojang: Re: Naihanchi Applications the_dojang: RE: UK the_dojang: Re: Ethnic bias in Martial Arts the_dojang: Moja Kwan Gup Test the_dojang: RE: Judging Forms the_dojang: RE: Hyung/Kata Stuff the_dojang: RE: Good praying mantis in Chicago and other stuff the_dojang: Craig's hyung differences the_dojang: RE:Values, Ethics and stuff-like-that-there the_dojang: Bruce's Research the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Neal Konecky Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2001 21:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #592 What do you think of this?? http://www.libertocracy.com/Webessays/Sports/abuse/Martial_Child_Abuse.htm Steven M. Alagna Mr. Alagna, Setting aside the fact that there is a very interesting use of hyperbole ("Making child pornography tame by comparison" and setting aside the obvious disagreement that I have with the premise of the diatribe, it is obvious that this person has very defined ideas of femininity. Unfortunately, he chooses not to share them with us the reading audience. It could be that this person opposes education of females as that too gives them power and choices, making them less dependent on men thereby eroding their femininity. Most notably, you will see that the article is a contnuous rant. There is not one reference to any study or authority that supports the premise posited. This is significant. In short, this article exemplifies one of the major dangers of the internet. This can be one cranky guy with an axe to grind. Now, through the power of the internet, he can appear like a whole organization. Suffice to say that this is one man I would not want my daughter to associate with. Neal Konecky ===== Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, to assure the survival and success of liberty. John F. Kennedy (1917-1963) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:38:39 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Naihanchi Applications Tom Wrote: For a completely different outlook on Naihanchi, you might be interested in Nathan Johnson's book "Barefoot Zen." Nathan teaches what I believe he calls Zen Shorin Do. His Naihanchi theory is that the 3 Naihanchi/Tekki forms are from an old Chinese form named Naifuanchin which is a two-man form that basically moves from joint lock to joint lock, escape to escape, counter to counter. In other words, he doesn't do any sort of ballistic strikes. I believe there might be a more circular pattern to the walking as well. I've bought the book, but haven't had time to do more than glance at the material. Reply.. Thanks Tom, I'll check it out. Ken ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 04:38:38 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: UK Ray wrote Darn! Another troublemaking Brit slipped in. Guess my screening techniques need improvement. :) Reply.. Cheers Ray, just what I needed.. LOL Happy training Ken ------------------------------ From: "Dana Vaillancourt" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 11:40:50 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ethnic bias in Martial Arts I seem to remember the earliest martial arts pamphlets put out by Korean instructors I've seen from the early 70s through the present note why you need an oriental master. To paraphrase, "insert martial art style here" came from the orient, therefore you need an oriental martial arts master to show you the proper way. No doubt this was an early marketing ploy playing off the Kung Fu-fad era [you mean David Carradine is an occidental name?!]. Quite successfully too; not to mention our own indoctrination of legitimacy being attached to Korean Grandmasters. Regarding the Kung Fu series, it is funny how the reverse probably kept Bruce Lee out of the lead in the same series. Besides JR, wear all those stripes on your belt and it seems like even the guys are checking you out! :) [A pre-caffeined] Dana _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 06:00:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Moja Kwan Gup Test Monday I had the honor of conducting another Gup test at Moja Kwan. There are few things more rewarding than helping other people reach a new goal. Of special note and inspiration are my most improved student Nick age 5 and promoted to 9th Gup, and my wife Nicole 6 months pregnant and promoted to 7th Gup. I must confess during Nick's intro course I was ready to give his mother her check back and advise her we don't teach children that young. Obviously Nick was sent to me to improve my skills as an instructor. I bow deeply, accepting this challenge for personal growth. After the test my wife asked me if I thought I would ever see her with an Orange belt. She tried our commercial school four years ago, and even tried the cardio classes their. We both agreed we are and will continue to have fun as a family, one day at a time. Yours in Jung Do, Charles "another USKMAF stealth belt" Richards Moja kwan Tang Soo Do __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Ates, Michelle (ATESML)" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:20:50 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Judging Forms Dizzy, Most judges look for spirit, power, technique, and a smooth rhythm. They also look at how well you are transitioning from one move to the next. My suggestion to you would be make sure each stance is exact in your forms. Also, when you punch keep the punches on a straight line and extend the punch all the way out pause it and snap it back. When executing a kick pause the kick and make sure you are chambering your knee and pause your kick at the end. In other words, when you execute a technique make sure it is clean and the judges can see it. On a lighter note make sure you uniform fits you properly and is not too big or small. You also might want to have it starched and pressed by the cleaners. This will add to your presentation. For a better idea on the technique I am talking about try going to www.bilang.com At this website you will find video clips of some persons that compete on the open tournament circuit titled NASKA. Especially look at the videos of Jon Valera, Michael Chaturantabut, and Anthony Atkins. Three other sites you can go to for video are www.skore.net and www.maslinc.com (videos on this site are under online magazine) P.S. Anthony Atkins and Steve Terada both are Tang Soo Do stylist even though they are doing open forms. A good traditional stylist is Jon Hsu (his video is on the www.maslinc.com site) Michelle L. Ates Information Technology Analyst University of Cincinnati (2401) Department of Internal Medicine Division of Infectious Diseases Infectious Disease Center Phone: (513) 584-5021 Fax: (513) 584-6040 Michelle.Ates@uc.edu ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:28:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Hyung/Kata Stuff Dear Tom, Dave et al: "...His Naihanchi theory is that the 3 Naihanchi/Tekki forms are from an old Chinese form named Naifuanchin which is a two-man form that basically moves from joint lock to joint lock, escape to escape, counter to counter. In other words, he doesn't do any sort of ballistic strikes. I believe there might be a more circular pattern to the walking as well. I've bought the book, but haven't had time to do more than glance at the material..." I'm going to walk VERY softly here as I know, in advance, how quickly things can deteriorate when it comes to discussing interpretation of or applications for various hyung movements. Please take what I am about to say in the most general terms. One of the gifts I recieved from my Shudokan training was an insight by my teacher that "authentic" (?) hyung/kata could be identified readily by noting that each technique could have both a concussive (striking/blocking) application on one plane and a manipulative (lock/pin/submission) interpretation for the same moves on another plane. (This came out of a discussion I had many years back when competitive individuals were introducing the idea of D-I-Y hyung, hyung-to-music, and "hyung hybreds.) From what I was given to believe, such an arrangement allowed for dispensing simplistic information with the form to marginal students while retain a more sophisticated interpretation for more dedicated students. I suppose this is probably the origins of the "secret techniques" legends that have come up now and again and have been used to support some of the more arcane and exotic PP work that has become rather popular in the last decades or so. Personally, I think this also goes a long ways towards explaining why one can simply not make a hyung by chaining one technique into another to produce sufficient aesthetic appeal. I take time to mention this now as the Tekki and Bassai Kata seemed to have followed this to a "T" though I will confess that I have been much more exposed to them than other Kata such as Saifa or Rohai. I'll bet if I was more familiar with other kata this would hold true there as well. I have often wondered if, as I delve deeper into the Chinese traditions, I will continue to find this to hold true with those Chinese traditions, if it will become even MORE evident, or perhaps turn out to be a less sophisticated pre-cursor of what developed in Okinawa. BTW: If it is of any interest there are a couple of names I can drop here (from the SABAKI Net) of individuals who are involved in this sort of research. I would want to clear it with said individuals but I am sure they would love to share much of the work they have been doing. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 08:53:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Good praying mantis in Chicago and other stuff Dear Dakin: Good stuff, all. For myself, I would be very much in favor of coming up with at least SOME statndardization so that perhaps at least we few on this Net would know that what we were discussing was the same thing in time, personality and place. Right now, it seems, one person's "TAE KUK CHUAN" is another persons' "Tai Chi Chuan" is another persons' "t'ae geuk kweon" and I don't even want to get into stylistic stuff about Wade-Giles, etc. Do other folks have any thoughts about making this labels, terms, designations a bit more standardized? Have any of the folks here found any good ways of dealing with these issues (short of memorizing the nomenclature for the martial traditions of three cultures!! ) ? This also brings up the matter you responded to later in your post. "....How about differentiating it into wushu (modern sport since 1950s), gongfu ("achieved merit" - Cantonese slang), guoshu ("national art" in Nationalist China from 1920s to 1950s), and ancient wushu?...." Have these labels found reasonably consistent acceptance as you have laid them out here? I have seen most of these used pretty much inter-changeably though admittedly by folks who probably don't know better and I underestand that "gongfu/kungfu" has all but fallen to the same generalizing-label-status that such terms as "karate,"taekowndo" and "hapkido" have. I am especially curious about a term such as "ancient wushu" which almost sounds like an oxymoron. Is there a more accurate term to identify Chinese material prior to, say 1926? On a more personal note, Dakin, I was wondering if the BaQua Chang person who worked so patiently with me some months back had any comments regarding some of these posts? Are you folks in Bloomington still available for weekend get-togethers? Seems like I will be making monthly treks to Jere's school in Harrison, OH (on the border OH/Ind) about the first weekend of each month starting in Dec. Since I will be skirting your backyard, so to speak, maybe we could get our head together now and again. ALSO: M West has his seminar coming up in Ft Wayne on Nov 10th and 11th.and I am making my arrangements now. Will you be making a cameo? How about the February Eagle Claw work with M Lau in Chicago? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:26:15 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Craig's hyung differences Craig, Differences in Hyungs have always interested me. Can you give some examples of how specific hyung are different? And are all GM Seo's hyung different? Thanks. Danny Dunn <<<<<<<>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:39:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Values, Ethics and stuff-like-that-there Dear Folks: "...Relating that all back to Korean martial arts, I think the question is how one can be a kunja ("superior person" or "true gentleperson") when someone has a different set of ethics. Is the answer that we should to our own selves be true? Or do pragmatic demands simply take precedence over all else?...." Dakins' comments hit very close to home for me as this is an important (and difficult) part of what I teach in my college-level Hapkido classes. Its one thing to teach a person how to throw, lock, subdue or even kill an opponent. Its quite another point to reconcile those activities with a value system that espouses the sanctity of all life as does Buddhism. The Korean Buddhist saint, Won Kwang (543-640AD) had quite a challenge with this when he produced a Code for the HwaRang warriors which could respect life but provide for the necessary evil of taking life in the name of the countrys' security. (BTW: a pivotal point in this seeming contradiction was to make an authentic effort to take the minimum number of lives necessary to accomplish the task.) In my classes I make a distinction (admittedly somewhat artificial) in which I identify the Buddhist influence as responsible more for the warriors' internal guidance, and the Confucian influences for identifying the warriors' place in the greater external world of the community, tribe and country. I suggest that a significant part of a warriors training would teach not only technical skills, but intellectual skills as well. These intellectual skills then help the warrior to competently perform the very necessary balancing act between what he owes himself and what he owes his country--- which is never an easy trick. Whatismore, that same training needs to be able to steel the warrior against the kind of objections/consequence he might run into as a result of his decisions. By way of example I was one of those listening to a spokesman for NATION OF ISLAM the other day as he espoused Consciencous Objection for individuals of that faith so as to avoid the chance of Muslims killing Muslims at the behest of Infidel policy. (My personal opinion is that such individuals have enjoyed the liberties and opportunities of this country and now its time to pay the check, but thats my own stuff.) From a warriors' point of view, this individual would be expected to hold fast to his (C.O.) beliefs despite pressure from his public to conduct himself otherwise, yes? And then there is the matter of not only what he will NOT do, but also what he is WILLING to do to meet his obligations to his community. (I remember that individuals who espoused CO status during WW II, Korea and Vietnam had been known to still enter the military --- even combat--- though in a non-combant role such as a medic.) Were this discussion taking place a few months ago maybe we could chalk it up to intellectual musings. In light of current events, maybe we MA need to be considering more closely just what it is that we have been about with all our training, ne? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 09:45:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Bruce's Research Bruce, I know its hard to say when you have research in progress, but what are your pl;ans for publishing it. I hope you'll let us know if you have articles coming out somewhere, or a book. I know I for one am interested in seeing what you've found. The sam goes for everyone else who is working on the history of martial arts and its development. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 8:30:09 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #595 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!