From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #598 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 25 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 598 In this issue: the_dojang: Judging Forms the_dojang: Rank the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #595 the_dojang: Thanks for the quote Alain=here is one for you guys and ladies ! the_dojang: Discrimination the_dojang: Swords and Korean Martial Arts Tradition... the_dojang: home again the_dojang: RE: What is done or how I do it? the_dojang: RE: Ethics of Killing stuff the_dojang: Re: AOL the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1100 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dizzy S." Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:06:06 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Judging Forms Michelle wrote: <<<>>> Thanks :o) I think I know what I was doing wrong now. I wasn't "pausing" between techniques. I was kinda rushing for some reason. I was also really nervous (that was my first tourny that I competed in). Michelle again: <<<>>> I love Martial Arts Trickz page (www.bilang.com)! That's how I learned some of the trickz hehehehe. Thanks for the suggestions on who to watch too. I'll do that right now :o) Thanks again. Tang Soo! Dizzy 5th gup TSD www.imahq.net _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2001 12:11:15 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Rank JR and Patrick write: >>... (I) pointed out that the "master" running the center of this ring was >>one of my 2nd dan students, who just happened to be Korean.< > > Unfortunately, the discrimination you received, along with the story of > students bypassing Non-Asian run schools, are similar to experiences I have > had over the years. Years ago, when the North-American TKD championships were a big thing in Toronto, I always attended. I recall how they "organized" the judging staff of their first one (by asking for help in this order): Korean Masters, then to Korean Black Belts (of all ranks in order of rank), then to Caucasian Masters, then to Caucasian Black Belts in order of rank. One of the most hillarious things followed. When the Korean Masters and Black Belts left (early) because they had enough of the hard work, they pleaded for us Caucasian Black Belts to help with the event (any rank). Needless to say, most of us laughed out loud (but then pitched in because we could not stand to see our students wait for officials to start the rings). After that fiasco, the organizers became a little more aware of the value of non Korean Black Belts:) Seems like this bull happened on both sides of the border. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 00:43:41 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #595 Neal wrote: <<<>>> I agree. Sounds like the guy who wrote that article is a "pig". The kind that think women should be farefoot (wait! I am lol), pregnant, and in the kitchin. He prolly thinks that women should be the "wimpy" type, depend on the male to "keep them safe". I've been a tom-boy all my life. Jeans, t-shirts and sneakers. I perferred to play in the dirt or climb trees than to play with dolls. I still do. I'm not affraid to get my nails dirty or get under the hood of a car. I was taught by my dad to not take "s**t" from anyone, and not to depend on anyone (he was referring to males). He (the pig that wrote the article) said that martial arts is not a sport or art. He's wrong. There is ma's that are sport, and there is ma's that are "art" or both. I think ma's as an art, but I also like that "ruff and tumble" action, too. I get bruised up, but I'm not afrraid to get into a good sparring match once in a while. Sorry. I'm rambling again. I just hate "sexist" guys like that. I got that (the "females don't do that" thing) when I played drums back in the day, and I still get it now in martial arts. It just pisses me off. I'll go blow off steam (do some forms or something). Tang Soo! Dizzy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 03:43:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: the_dojang: Thanks for the quote Alain=here is one for you guys and ladies ! Yo, Alain: Loved the complete unedited version of the infamous Billy Jack quote. Good stuff. OK, now, I was watching another good movie with a whole bunch of meanings in it. See if you can remember this one: Source: Super Soul (Cleavon Little); Vanishing Point, the Movie. Big Ken __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 07:38:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Discrimination Patrick: "Unfortunately, the discrimination you received, along with the story of students bypassing Non-Asian run schools, are similar to experiences I have had over the years." Does it help non Asian instructors to "look the part" of being a "Master", as in having all those stripes on your belt? Sure your existing students know who and what you are, but what about those we are talking about looking for a school? Maybe this is why I have so few students?? ;-) In the last few schools I've visited, it never fails that one of the young gup students will walk over to me and ask me "what kind of belt is that?" Mac ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 08:22:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Swords and Korean Martial Arts Tradition... Bruce writes: "After four books my interest in publishing has undergone a shift. I don't look to pump out a lot of verbage regarding some subject unless I think I can make a true contribution to raising the bar where Korean martial traditions are concerned. That said, I also have to own that I have allowed myself to get a bit scattered of late as I work to continue the original DOCHANG JOURNAL project, pursue material on Korean sword and still gather and correlate material on the Chinese influences in the development of Korean martial traditions. I'd like to think that sometime this material will merit a consideration by JAMA, or at least TKD TIMES. I'll let you know if I get close. Thanks for the thought. " Just a few more questions. I am currently working to "untangle" myself from the teachings and style of Songahm TKD and the ATA. I have always had an interest in the idea of "traditional" martial arts and recently came to the conclusion that I needed to focus my efforts in systems other ther the ATA's. I will plead ignorance, and ask humbly for more information on the books you have written. I also ask your (and anyone else's) advice on where to go to get "reliable" information on the various forms of TKD and other MAs that have been practiced in Korea. I have gotten some decent books on various styles, but they mostly concentrate on techniques and speak little to theory and application, alomost always avoid history and culture. I am also very interested in the religious/moral/ethical basis for martial arts practice (one thing that I have found to be lacking in the majority of the ATA). I also note that you speak of pursuing information on the Korean sword. I too have a great interest in the sword and have as of late gone to studying the Japanese sword - a very interesting and worthwhile pursuit, but would greatly appreciate any information you could provide on the Korean sword. Before I receive too many flame mails - I said "the majority" of the ATA. I have found some shining examples of what it means to "be" a Martial Artist inside the ATA, but most of the time all I hear is arguing over trophies, titles, championships, who is the best, and other selfish and destructive thoughts (Just take a brief read of their very own message board!) For those of you in the ATA that do "follow the WAY" - God Bless and may you oneday truely turn the Titanic with that oar your carrying! Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Harold Whalen Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 06:52:47 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: home again Well we are finally home and for the most part our trip to Korea was very successful, the students that went with me are mine unlike other groups that may have attended we all came from the same Dojang not different branches but the same one this shows true dedication and determination and a bond that lasts. It was special for me because these were my Master's not someone else's or a gym that they didn't know but with my Master's whom promoted me to Black Belt some 25 years ago, We went back to our Roots so to speak and it makes a trip a little more personal when you are at the Moolsoolsa store and Master Won calls to check on your schedule or when the head your Kwan calls the Store to insure that your students receive a major discount on all of the Martial Arts equipment and the checks the receipt to make sure they did. Even though I had to post through friends I read the Digest every day as did all of the members of our group and To mike Tomlinson and Ray Thank you. If anyone has any personal questions about the trip I will be happy to answer you if I can. Hal ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 09:30:19 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: What is done or how I do it? Dear Patrick: "...An argument might be made that a decision of NOT killing a person solely because of same faith has as its basis the same discrimination as killing a person BECAUSE of his faith. This would invalidate the "morality" of such a C.O. argument. You and I could go back and forth about "warrior's" responsibilities, but taking a more personally palatable position that allows for a measure of agreement, considerable weight should be the "individual's" position to determine the suitability of C.O. status, regardless of external pressure. I believe many C.O. have in the past shown great courage, both of their convictions, and in their Military Service to their country......" I can't believe that you actually intrigued me with your arguement!! I would seriously enjoy hearing you expand on this a bit. On the face of my comment I think that staying ones' participation in an activity OR participating in and encouraging that activity would take much the same strength of character. I can't be sure of the moral assessment others might make of that individuals' position either way. However, as I write this I am thinking that perhaps in the same way that I can support my country but readily criticize many things it does, perhaps others may detest what, say, the Taliban does, but can't help but admire the single-mindedness and commitment with which they do it. Is this the dynamic you are focusing on? If I am even remotely in the ballpark, this is the sort of character-building I am referring to in martial training, and by extension, the sort of character development that I think the self-indulgent lifestyle here in the States undermines. Am I even close? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 10:00:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Ethics of Killing stuff Dear Dakin: "...When I was at Dr. Maung Gyi's Combat Camp last weekend, he mentioned that Buddhist states had to develop combat systems that killed people quickly, so That they didn't suffer too much. He also noted that although the unit of Ghurkas he was trained in was interested in this sort of quick kill, other units of the Ghurkas believed that one's enemy should have to listen to the groans of his wounded comrades for as long as possible (to weaken morale) and therefore indulged in mortal wounds that were not quick and clean, but rather were long andlingering (such as stomach wounds)...". Your comment about intent reminded me of an article I read about a year ago at the time that IN THE FOOTSTEPS OF ALEXANDER was being broadcast repeatedly on the education stations. I was given to believe that the attitudes towards warfare among northern European and Asian tribes focused on more what we might call today "total warefare". By this I mean that agrarian communities and tribes of more southernly tribes (say in the Fertile Crescent or Central Asia) tended to "push" their opponents out of a contested location, killing those who chose to make a stand and resist. On the other hand Sythians, Celts, Greeks (for example) thought in terms capturing-for-enslavement or killing as many of the enemy population as they could. If this is true, maybe there is a less well-understood dynamic in the development of East Asian (Chinese and Korean) martial traditions. Perhaps martial tactics and strategies had varying intents or goals other than the assumed complete and immediate subjugation or extermination of an enemy depending on the nature of the cultures that developed them. Such a dynamic might be seen in more agrarian Chinese cultures developing traditions in which lethality was not a paramont concern and by comparison cultures such as the northern tribes of the Eastern steppe would think more in terms of immediate lethality (sort of a "kill-em-all-&-let-Gawd-sort-it-out" mentality). Have you run into anything that speaks to something like this? Just some musings for a Thursday morning. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 11:21:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: AOL In a message dated 10/24/2001 10:15:34 PM Central Daylight Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << This is from one of my 7th Gups that works for an internet security company (read computer jockey). Good luck with AOL. >> thanks for going the extra mile there, charles. please pass that along to your student, too. interesting reading. not the answer i wanted to hear, but it's what i expected from aol....lol. :) take care, melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2001 9:35:32 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #598 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!