From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #603 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sat, 27 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 603 In this issue: the_dojang: Killing Morality and More the_dojang: Hapkido Dobuk bottoms with cuff? the_dojang: wanted the_dojang: TKD schools in Denver the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #601 the_dojang: Shotokan, TSD and TKD forms the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Patrick L" Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 16:00:41 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Killing Morality and More Mr. Sims, In posing the question, "Is it what is done, or how I do it?" You set up a conundrum. I have to say it is both. For example, believing killing can be a tolerable act, does not mean "In all ways in all cases!" And of course, if you cannot accept the act of killing then one need not qualify the how. >I think that staying ones' participation in an activity OR participating in >and encouraging that activity would take much the same strength of >character.< I concur that coming to a conclusion and verbally defending it, on either side of an issue requires the same strength of character. But the courage to stand behind ones convictions when faced with rabid discrimination, jail, separation, injury or death are the clearer tests of commitment (again for either side of the argument). The assesment and appreciation of strong commitment can be made independant of the morality issue. >I can't be sure of the moral assessment others might make of that individuals' position either way. However, as I write this I am thinking that perhaps in the same way that I can support my country but readily criticize many things it does, perhaps others may detest what, say, the Taliban does, but can't help but admire the single-mindedness and commitment with which they do it. Is this the dynamic you are focusing on?< These are the three issues I was hitting. 1) An individual must make a rational moral decision, if they desire to define their participation as a citizen outside the norm. 2) Society must assign expectations in a rational equitable manner to all citizens. 3) The society should judge the rational aspect of a dissenting individual's argument without discrimination against the moral aspect, to define the acceptability of the individuals decision. So for instance, a belief in not killing any enemy may be a good enough reason to allow a citizen to perform other than front line duties, since there is no ambiguity in the logic used. However, a belief that killing personal enemies is ok, but killing society's enemies is not ok, might be judged not rational and redefined status should be denied. IMHO Judging the morality of a concept is similar, but more complex. If one accepts morality, then one probably accepts amorality and possibly immorality. Faulty logic is not necessarily immoral, a bad decision is not necessarily immoral, a decision (good or bad) made in the absence of an appeal to morality may well be amoral. IMHO Presenting/preaching/accepting self-serving decisions founded on an appeal to morality built on self-serving discriminatory arguments is immoral. Now I am going to go have several moral martinis - I feel I have earned them. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2001 22:20:14 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Dobuk bottoms with cuff? Here is a question im hoping someone in listland can answer. while training up in Yongguigo ( spelling)at the Young Pung hapkido Dojang , The hapkido Master thier wore dobul bottoms that either had a elastic cuff or velcro on the bottom giving it a bloused appearance. Anyone ever see these? Would anyone know where these can be obtained? Jack ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 01:02:34 EDT Subject: the_dojang: wanted I am looking for copies of the following magazine issues. Please email me offline if you can help. Thanks. Karate/Kung Fu Illustrated: 12/94, 4/95, 8/95, 10/96, 11/96 Black Belt Magazine: 7/79, 1/92, 11/98, 3/99, 9/99 ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:36:15 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: TKD schools in Denver There are schools on every street corner in Denver, especially in the south east suburbs. I know all the WTF/USTU schools in the area and would be glad to give you the phone numbers and addresses and the "scoop" in personal e-mail. If you want schools of an ITF origin I would contact either Robert Martin of this list or call The USTF headquarters in Broomfield and talk to Gmst Serriff. You can find his phone number in the back of TKD Times magazine. Hope this helps Rich Imagine! _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 08:59:25 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #601 Bruce, I seem to remember hearing about a fellow that taught an Egyptian martial art called Sebekkah which closely resembled Chuan Fa. They used many animal representations for forms, stances and techniques. Also they use the bo staff as every other ancient civilization has. I believe this man had a school for this sort of thing in Los Angeles. As I remember, China and Egypt were the main civilazations in the world at the time (unless you read US public school history books!). I believe China was to the lesser degree though. At any rate they most likely were trading partners in some capacity. This Sebekkah was taught only to priests, royal guards and the royal family and for some reasons merchants. I would conjecture that interactions between Egyptian and Chinese merchants would have at some point led to an exchange of fighting philosophy and technique. As Sebekkah and Chuan Fa have several stances and strikes that are almost identical. However one must take into account that the human body was the same then as it is today and has limited capabilities. This said I am referring to the fact that the human body has a limited number of ways move and generate power. This would, of course, mean that Sebekkah was probably partially responsible for the sophistication of ancient Chuan Fa. Further I would say that after several thousand years of trial and error most if not all of those ways have been found. Take care and God Bless! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: DWoods321@aol.com Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 09:45:38 EDT Subject: the_dojang: Shotokan, TSD and TKD forms I think this for Damian, In time studying martial arts to include Okinawan Kempo, Tang Soo Do and Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan I have read up on and experiences some interesting things about their respective forms. You did not find Bunkai in Shotokan until very recently. This is because it was created for school children and military basic trainees and not meant to be a real Do. Funakoshi wanted it to be a Do but after he interested it to the universities in Japan the imperial Japanese government took it over and used it to spread their miskewed version of Bushido so as to rally the people to their war effort. Now to get back to the subject. Tang Soo Do and early Tae Kwon Do all did the Shotokan curriculum. This is because most of the kwan leaders learned Shotokan at one of the Japanese universities. After teaching awhile they started interjecting alot of their own ideas and things that they read about into their curriculum. They developed their own unique style of kicking which may or may not be influenced by Tae Kyon (this is a debatable). If you pick up some the earliest Tae Kwon Do books they usually refer to TKD as Korean Karate but if you notice as of late some folks get mad when this is said. There is nothing wrong with this because Korean Karate has evolved into Tae Kwon Do over the past 50 or so years and is now very different. I practiced the ITF Tae Kwon Do forms awhile ago and they were very similar to the Pinan/Heian/PyongAhn forms. No offense to anybody but I found them to be not very fluid and devoid of proper applications. Conversely, they have very good technique and teach you exhaustively how to change stances under a lot of difficulty as opposed to their Kempo and TSD counterparts which have very fluid transitional movements, particularly Kempo. There is still much to be gleaned from them. The Palgwe forms I found to be about them same except that they were somewhat more fluid. I personally liked the fluidity of the Palgwe's more so than the ChonJi patterns. The Tae Guek patterns as far as traditional hyung from any martial art are quite different. They were put together so that they could be fitted onto flash cards and be sent Korean masters overseas. There is nothing to be learned about rooting, power generation, good stance, good technique from these unless you do good basics in class. Now for the good points of these forms. They teach more pracitical stance work for real fighting. They teach speed from technique to technique and they incorporate high kicking and jump kicking in the actual form. The TSD, ChonJi and Palgwe hardly teach this at all yet they teach this type of kicking in their styles as basic technique. I believe that the Koreans changed their forms so as not to have them looking like Japanese forms, to make them more a Korean product. They have done so much to their credit. One of the big things that lets you know that you are practicing good martial art is this if the concepts of your martial art is the same from basics to forms to one steps to self-defense then you are good. Please don't get me wrong and as I stated above each set of forms has it's own drawbacks but each also has it's own merits. Also it is all how the instructor instructs and how the trainee trains. If both are good you will be ok. Now to rip on Okinawan forms, they are rather boring to watch and practical to a fault. The stances used in their forms are too rigid and impractical for real fighting, however they only do this in their forms to build strength in their legs. If you have a good teacher in Okinawan Kempo he will tell you that you do not use these stances in real fighting because they restrict movement. Anyhow now that I have probably pissed everyone off. Oops! Sorry I forgot the Chinese stylists, their forms are too bloody long. There that does it. Take care and God Bless! Tang Soo! David Woods ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sat, 27 Oct 2001 12:23:25 PDT Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #603 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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