From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #607 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 29 Oct 2001 Vol 08 : Num 607 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Sword Literature the_dojang: RE:More Hyung Stuff the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #606, Korean sword the_dojang: RE: Sword Literature question the_dojang: RE: Even More Hyung Stuff the_dojang: RE: Racism Stuff Re: the_dojang: RE:More Hyung Stuff the_dojang: Thanks for the inputs the_dojang: Re: Downblocks the_dojang: RE: Forms the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:51:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Sword Literature Oh Boy, is THIS turning into a real issue for me! "....Is there any authoritative writing on the background of the Korean sword out there?...." I have been after GM Koo about this since first I started training under him about three years ago and I STILL can't get a straight answer out of him! On the one hand I understand that there are a number of well-regarded written works on traditional Korean sword that pre-date the Kabo Reform period (1894-1896) from which the Korean Kumdo Assn is said to have developed but I'll be damned if I can get him to name them, provide a an author or a source to locate them. In fact, when I mentioned that I was organizing my sword material as an integral part of the Hapkido curriculum he expressed some real concern about putting information to paper. Apparently, the rationale is that traditionally such instruction was handed down on a very personal level from teacher to student. Personally I take issue with this as the MU YEI DO BO TONG JI was written after Lee correlated over 200 sources of books, manuscripts and manuals on martial art, science, tactics, strategy and training. Somebody must have been writing SOMETHING down beginning as early as 1594! As it is the MU YEI.. is probably the best source right now for insights into how the Korean sword is used. Don't look for the kind of anal compulsion that one sees with the sword-worshipping cousins on the otherside of the East Sea, though. The Koreans never became invested in the sword as anything more than a tool by which a warrior expressed their valor and provided service to society. The Japanese have that whole "soul-of-the-Samurai" thing going (see Nitobe). I have tried to locate bi-lingual rare book shops in Korea with no real results, and in talking with the few people who have been to Korea and haunted the bookstores I understand that finding high quality published material is next to impossible. (Sometimes I get the feeling that there are TWO levels of Korean MA. The first level is the "for-general consumption" MA which is what gets exported for dissemination to non-Koreans. The second level is the MA that gets shared among the Koreans for internal consumption only.) "....The reason why I ask is that unlike Japan or even China, there does not seem to be a dominate style of weapon design or sword art. I have read that Korean sword art was more personal choice then cultural, and the swords would vary from noted warrior to warrior....." There is some truth to this, but the fact remains that the Korean warrior wields the sword in a very different fashion than the Japanese. And don't go buying that stuff about the Korean sword being a heavy, single-edge weapon with a straight blade. Depending on the period in which one is invested, the Korean sword underwent modification over the years just like the Chinese, Japanese or European swords. People who sport the long, straight sword are using a weapon that harkens back to the sword architecture chracteristic of the Three Kingdoms period. Even after that period many military leaders such as Admiral Yi (d. 1597) carried such weapons less as a working tool and probably more as an icon invoking the military heritage of that era much like our modern military still caries dress swords. The Korean sword is common to Kumdo is a heavy, hand-forged weapon with a shallow curve and on occasions diffferentially hardened at the edge very much after the fashion of the kind of blade used by the Chinese Ming Dyn (1384 - 1644) forces. THE KOREAN SWORD COMPANY has a website with pictures of the swords if you want to compare them to Japanese swords such as you find at BUGEI TRADING or MANTIS SWORDS, or PAUL CHEN SWORDS. The going price for a quality sword is between $1000 and $2000US. The first thing that you will notice is that the blade, while curved is markedly more "stout" than the Japanese katana and will take quite a bit of punishment. All the same, I recently purchased a Japanese Gunto (WW II) sword which I used for practice cutting so as not to abuse my Korean blade until my skill is of a respectable level. Hey! I just had a thought. Maybe our friend Mike can help us locate books on Korean sword. How say you, Mike? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:11:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:More Hyung Stuff Dear David: "... My intention in writing that article was not to start a flame war and it doesn't look like it has thank God. My intention was to get feedback on what folks like, dislike and think is relevent and irrelevent in their forms sets and form's training...." Amen. I think this is very important stuff; everybit as important, at least, as those discussions about what would REALLY work on the street. I think this is our heritage that we are talking about here and I get concerned that it often gets short shrift. "...After the Japanese authorities got a hold on karate that was when they "suggested" he change this and that. Really though he had changed it quite a bit already. Nagamine Sensei verbally reprimands Funakoshi Sensei in his book "The Essence of Okinawan Karate-Do" for changing alot of these things...." I have seen two copies of S. Nagamines' book at my Barnes & Nobles Bookstore and will make sure I pick-up a copy. BTW I was able to get a PB copy of GM Kang Uk Lees' TANG SOO DO ( Unique Publ.,1998; ISBN 0-86568-170-8) for about $20US. Apparently the HC is out-of-print. I was a bit disappointed at how shallow the historical treatment of the hyung was but I have OS Funakoshi (KARATE-DO KYOHAN ISBN 0-87011-190-6), Trimble and Morris (KARATE KATA APPLICATIONS, ISBN 0-90180-938-Y), S.Ohgami (KARATE KATAS OF WADORYU, ISBN 91-9702-31-08) and others to help out. The names of the hyung that have been borrowed by the TSD people are pretty evident (IE. RO HAI/ Rohai, Pyung Ahn/Pinan) but I will be taking a closer look at those hyung that are supposedly borrowed from the Chinese traditions which is going to be a little trickier. Can anyone offer some help regarding pairing up a particular hyung with a specific Chinese Form/style counterpart. Where are our TSD people? BTW-quick question. I pulled down GM Cho's books on the WTF hyung and didn't get any help there at all. Am I to understand that all 20 WTF hyung were developed by Gen Choi? Are these hyung unique to him or did he simply rename hyung that he borrowed in part or wholely from other traditions? Any WTF people want to field this one? Would there be any help by looking at the ITF or UTF material or is that all in basically the same modernist boat as the WTF? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: yotony@rmi.net Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:19:06 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #606, Korean sword Any opinions on "The Fighting Weapons of Korean Martial Arts" by In Hyuk Suh and Jane Hallander, Unique Publications, 1988? It has 60 pages or so on the sword as well as coverage of staff and other weapons. ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:26:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Sword Literature question Dear Anthony: "..." Is there any authoritative writing on the background of the Korean sword out there?...." Since you are in Korea training have you been able to locate any written material on Korean sword traditions? Have any of the authority figures where you train been able to identify any possiblities to you? Best Wishes, ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:33:36 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Even More Hyung Stuff Dear Ken: "... I'm just wondering how strictly many of you stick to what you were taught when you teach forms...." This is exactly what I was speaking of in my ealier response. Most people make a big deal about "secret" this-and-that and other allusions to proprietary information in hyung. Fact of the matter is that most of those bozo-s don't know how to teach hyung, and don't do the kind of work/research necessary to make hyung a vital and valuable part of KMA training. To answer your question, though, I teach the biomechanics and make suggestions of how movement can be used. The idea is that once the student begins to understand how their body can be used to accomplish some particular goal they can begin to interpret from the hyung all by themselves. My job is to help them get the door open. Their job is to walk through the door and discover the space on the other side. Hope this helps. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 09:48:39 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Racism Stuff Dear Rudy: "... Here is what my old friend Pat McCarthy (author of Bubishi) has to say about this very subject in his new website...." S McCarthy has made some excellent contributions to furthering an understanding of what MA is about. As I write this I have a copy of his BUBISHI over on the sideboard in my office. Its one of those books you don't really read as much as sample, then chew for a bit, before taking another bite. Any time he has something say I sit up and listen as I can pretty much be guaranteed I will learn something. Sadly, however, what he has to say is not always what I want to hear and the matter of prejudice/racism (lets call it what it is!) in the MA is an excellent example. Its pretty much an institution in MA training, that, as he says, if one is not training under an Oriental individual they are simply not getting the authentic material. Sometimes I think this is in the same category of Affirmative Action whcih is a racist policy that assumes the Black, Latino or other minorities are somehow inferior to Whites such that they need some special consideration from government agencies to compete in the same career markets as everyone else. The assumption is that they just aren't competent or strong enough to do it by themselves. Somewhere along the line someone is going to need to clue the MA community in that it is fast becoming obvious that in the general MA community the Koreans and Japanese aren't near as invested in maintaining or raising the quality of instruction and understanding as are practitioners in the western hemisphere. OK, now maybe THEY don't want to hear THAT. But the fact is I hear one helluva lot more western voices on discussion Nets like this asking questions, discussing issues and and gathering information than any one representing the Korean establishment. In fairness, maybe they know they just can't cut the mustard compared to western practioners and in fact the racist policy of learning "true" MA for only a person with oriental features is about the only thing they have going for them. Possible? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 8:39:35 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE:More Hyung Stuff > .... Am I to understand that all 20 WTF hyung were developed by Gen Choi? Do you mean ITF in the above? To the best of my knowledge, Major Gen. Choi had nothing what-so-ever to do with the Kukkiwon's poomsae. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 08:38:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Thanks for the inputs Ray noted: Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 7:11:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: Ken's wish list Ken, from your list it sounds like you might be looking for an FMA school. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com> Response: Well, I appreciate the responses. A little incoherent rambling is occasionally good. Point of clarification. I have no problem with forms or tradition. In fact, used to like it immensely. So I do not cast aspersions on that important facet of martial arts training. I understand that some schools have to throw a bunch of items into their curriculum to make it palatable to a diverse student group. And, the written word (without tone of voice) is hard to decipher so you can't determine the writer's complete intent. Suffice it to say that everyone has to find their own path and what makes them happy. I'll figure it out. Thanks, Ken P.S. Ray, yes I have met an instructor who teaches Doce Pares stuff. I referred him to your eskrima list. He trained under GM Canete, Burt Richardson, and Insonato, among others. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Make a great connection at Yahoo! Personals. http://personals.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 12:57:11 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Downblocks In a message dated 10/29/2001 6:43:22 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I'm just wondering how strictly many of you stick to what you were taught when you teach forms. What I'm saying is if you were taught a down block you would teach down block. Well my question is that couldn't that down block also be an arm break? I'm just wondering if you offer up other interpretations for movements. This is obviously not very practical for low belts, but for upper belts how many of you do this. >> We definitely teach all the moves in a form as either a defense or offense movement. And to all belt ranks ... not just for upper belts. If you tried to downblock a kick you would break your arm. I saw that in real life in one of the classes I took in TKD in Orange County. That was the last time that teacher ever told a student to downblock a kick. We now sweep the leg aside as the Ashihara people do. Illona ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 16:09:55 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Forms Hi Ken, Just been reading your question and in response I feel that it is up to the instructor how they interoperated the hyung. For example our 1st hyung is Kee Cho hyung where the first two moves is a low block then a step through center punch. Now the question arises, we all know the low block but what we see is the final position of the low block and a start position, so in answer to your question this low block could now be interoperated as a sweeping block for a midsection punch and the follow up technique could be a step through take down. My lower ranks still see a low block and centre punch. regards Ken Shinson Tang Soo Do ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2001 14:02:00 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #607 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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