From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #614 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 1 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 614 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: Thanks, Anthony the_dojang: Re: True Rape Story (and other self defense stuff) the_dojang: Re: breakfalls the_dojang: RE:Sword/Art Proliferation Stuff the_dojang: Short sword post the_dojang: Pills / Nature / Ung gotta go! the_dojang: Kim retains WTF presidency the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 09:36:13 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Thanks, Anthony Dear Anthony: What a great post! I hope that both you and Michael Choi can appreciate what a service you are doing for us by taking time to share the information, opinions, and thoughts that you do. I would be lying if I said I wasn't the least bit disappointed that more of the ranking individuals in Kumdo don't take time to come onto a Net such as this and follow your lead in expressing their thoughts in such a candid fashion. But I am taking a moment here to let you know how much this researcher appreciates what you and Michael and Rudy and a lot of others take time to share. Good stuff all. 1.)"...the largest group for the study of the sword is and will likely continue tobe Kumdo (Kendo) in Korea. The second largest is Haidong Gumdo which has split into two different Federations..." This makes a BIG difference in discussing HDGD as I was not aware that there are two different organizations both presenting themselves as HDGD. Just as a side light, I mentioned in a post to Michael that one Kumdo website identified Korean sword taught to the Korean military/police as "ghihuck-gum". Could this be at all related to the monastic art you mentioned ("gicheon"). I was thinking as I read your comment that were a sword art to try to survive in the Occupation that perhaps it might have receded into a monastic environment. Thoughts? 2.)"...Shimgumdo, a style developed from a "heavenly vision" to the monk Kim ChangSik...." This sounds like the "Shim Kumdo" group that I contacted here in the US. What you shared regarding its origins is pretty much what the spokesman said to me over the phone. I can't speak for others, but I have real problem with arts whose origins are attributed to anonymous Taoist wanderers in the mountains of China, mysterious goblins in the mountains of Japan, or inspirations and dreams provided by transcendent or cosmic beings in the mountains of Korea. I AM intrigued, however, and wonder what benefit to my KMA training I might run into driving through the Rockies or Sierra Nevadas here in the States. :-) 3.) "...Many schools in Korea are choosing to follow the so-called, "American model"...." Thanks for being honest and candid enough to confirm what I have been suspecting regarding sword and not-a-few- aspects of Hapkido. There has been some part of me that continually holds out hope to identify and locate individuals who continue to have enough pride in themselves and the arts that they practice to continue to seek out and refine the methods and protocols passed to them by earlier generations. I think it is incumbant upon us to track down what material is available whether it is the MYDBTJ by Lee for its historical value, or this TSD work I recently picked-up for its modern consideration of older material. Just a side thought.... The Kabo Reform directed that Korean sword be taught to the military and police, and the MYDBTJ identifies sword Form specifically of a Korean nature along with Form attributed to Chinese and Japanese sources. Wouldn't there be some sort of published material identifying this sword much like the field manuals that the US Army has to guide its instruction? 4.) "... groups have sprung up due to the Korean legal system denyingHaidong Gumdo or it's splinter group, known by the same name, the right tocopyright the term Haidong Gumdo (due to its general nature as an adjectiveand lack of any historical basis linking the term to the techniques, ie:some ancient text saying, "Kim Jon-Doe went out from Pyong-Yang to practiceHaidong Gumdo in the mountains"). Haidong Dobub is just one example of alow dan practitioner of Kumdo and Haidong Gumdo deciding to mix the two andcreate their own art. ....." Thanks for the run-down on "dobbob". I was thinking that this was probably the case. I am thinking as I close this out that the very least that we could be doing to working with the hyung available to us in the MYDBTJ, the BON KUK KUM BUP and CHOSON KUM BUP in light of the way we currently practice and get this stuff down in print before it all goes the way-of-all-flesh. Are any of the people with whom you are familiar making this effort? Interesting sidelight: GM Koo has been dissuading me from investigating BKGB and CHOSON both at the school. No real reason given and I don't let it stop me away from the school. Have you run into this at the HDGD school that you train at? Is a reason ever given for (or against) pursuing this practice? ("..... but everywhere I look I see juk-to technique being misapplied to swords...." Yeah, it's a bitch.) "....So, that's my experience here in Korea in a slightly bitter nutshell.....Bruce asked about the availability of books and the willingness of "authorities" to point out material to students. It works kind of like this.... There are a few books we see everywhere. Anything modern and instructional that doesn't relate to kendo seems to be spoken of as crap.Things like the Muye dobo tongji are spoken of with respect but as incomplete or just a starting point - things have evolved since then. It leads one to think that the masters do not encourage independent study. ...." I think that M JR West (Hapkido, Jackson, Miss) probably has this pegged when he reports that there will probably come a time when it will be we in the West who will become the caretakers for Eastern traditions. My personal opinion is that perhaps the Chinese, Japanese and Koreans may have been spoiled having traditions such as they have inherited fall so casually into their laps. Without these kinds of roots here in the West, we Americans (sometimes) can appreciate what it means to have even a few traditions of only a few generations age. I say we keep asking "why" and "where did this come from?" It seems to be what we do best, and I bet there will come a day when our Korean cousins will thank us, yes? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Elizabeth (Libby) Wiebel" Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:37:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: True Rape Story (and other self defense stuff) - -> From: "Craig Stovall" - -> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2001 17:08:23 -0600 - -> Subject: the_dojang: True Rape Story - -> - -> 1. It's true what they say...LOCK YOUR DOORS, STUPID!!! Sorry, Craig, but I don't like the tone of this statement. Yes, I agree, it would have been better had she locked her doors. However, the way it is put here makes me feel like the blame is being placed on the victim... and that is NEVER the case. NEVER. Hindsight might show us better decisions that could have been made... but a violent crime is just that... and it was NOT her fault. Crimes like this are crimes of violence, not passion. Had it not been her, it would have been someone else. I'm glad he was caught. - -> 3. Her arse (literally I suspect) was saved by pure luck. Had she yelled - -> "help", or "please stop", or the ever-popular "aaaarrrggghhh"...it would - -> have all been over but the crying. Instead, she inadvertantly stumbled onto - -> a psychological ploy (specifically calling someone's name) that played out - -> to perfection. IMO, another interesting turn on the old adage, "Yell - -> fire...not help". I've always been taught the yell "FIRE" tactic, too... and I think it's probably a very valid one. In fact, when I was travelling in foreign countries, I was told that it would be good to learn the words for "fire", "police", and "help" even if I didn't know any other words in the languages of the countries I visited. - -> - -> Anyway, wanted to share a successful self-defense story...albeit, one that - -> did not involve pressure points or spinning kicks. If nothing else, food - -> for thought. Perhaps another useful object lesson for those that teach in - -> this realm. - -> Thanks for sharing this. It's good to hear of successful self defense like this... even if it doesn't involve the often-complicated tactics taught in our MA classes. Now... a related question. A few weeks ago, I stopped by a friend's MA school to watch her and several other adults I know test for their blue belts. Before their testing occurred, I saw several of the children's tests... mid-to-upper belt levels... in particular, I saw the self defense portions of their tests. The kids I watched were about age 10 and under, and the techniques they were executing involved flips and throws... basically bringing the attacker to the ground and then administering some kind of strike to the head or neck. This was a TKD school, but I do know that there are some hapkido techniques taught there as well. Now... I, in my adult classes, have learned some of these things. But... I've also learned much simpler ways to escape the kind of holds they were breaking from (neck grab, wrist grabs). It was a little bit frightening to me to see these little kids throwing one another... when they could have just as easily broken free from an attacker their own size without bringing them to the ground. Had the attacker been an adult... or someone larger... none of these techniques would have worked anyhow... So I was both concerned and confused at their use in this class... especially since I know that this is some of the first self defense training these kids get (I used to train at this school, myself). I was always taught "walk, talk, run, fight" as the proper way to handle a potentially defensive situation. Walk away... if that's not possible... talk your way out of it... run... and as a last resort, use some kind of physical defense... but then only enough to help yourself. It's not always necessary, IMHO, to execute a potentially lethal blow. I had teachers early on who would, in mixed adults'/kids' classes spend time even role playing... helping the kids to learn the "walk, talk, run" portions. Adults learned flips and hapkido-like moves at later levels... but everyone was taught simple escapes (jabbing at the eyes, fingers to the adam's apple, arm bars, bringing the hand back toward the arm, different "momentum" escapes) early on. It would bother me if children of mine were taught to flip and throw... but not that kicking at a knee or jabbing fingers to the eyes can be just as effective. In a society where we seen to be so concerned about violence, I was really bothered by this whole scene. Just offering my $0.02... but would love to hear anyone's reactions to it. Best, Libby - -- - ---------------------------------------------------------------- Libby Wiebel | ewiebel@cs.wm.edu | http://www.cs.wm.edu/~ewiebel - ---------------------------------------------------------------- "Although the world is full of suffering, it is also full of the overcoming of it." - Helen Keller - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:45:07 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: breakfalls In a message dated 10/30/2001 9:31:13 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I teach all my students falling ways. Even my 4-6 year old class learn almost everything about falls. I think they enjoy them more than any other age group... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul >> i agree, jere. kids love to roll and fall. the adults tend to forget and become fearful. so many adults dont even remember how to do a somersault. we just got a big takedown mat for our new classes here in columbia. looking forward to teaching breakfalls tonite :). the kids'll have a blast. i expect the adults will balk at first, but then have fun :) melinda Chajonshim Martial Arts Supply http://www.cjmas.com Toll Free: 1-877-847-4072 Proud Sponsor of the 2001 10th Annual US Open TKD Championships ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 1 Nov 2001 10:11:54 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Sword/Art Proliferation Stuff From: "Michael Choi" Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 00:29:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The proliferation of sword arts in Korea (My view) From a guy who is so very, very guilty for long posts, thank you Mr. Boyd for your post. (Now everyone must hate me :-P About Hapkido "sword" techniques, you're right, we just cover very, very basic jook-do strikes. Some schools probably teach a little better than others. (For brevity, I'll post my school's method later.) I was told that the idea is be able to defend against a sword empty-handed and with our basic 5 weapons (short stick, staff, cane, rope, and sword). I've never seen real sword being used except for an internet video of a IHF championship. [KHF teaches only jook-do for the most part, Kidohae mostly teaches Kuk Sool (straight?) sword techniques, IHF is the only one that devotes a whole third of their curriculum to sword, Hankumdo). Michael Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp Dear Frank and Michael: The tradition of emptyhand and armed technique being tightly interwoven is an institution of just about every MA tradition I know of. Where the ball seems to get dropped---OK, TWO places that the ball gets dropped--- are 1.) with the student's impatience and 2.) the teachers' niggardliness. As GM Koo has shared with me a number of times, most of the "good stuff" associated with Korean sword tradition was not taught until 4th BB and he reports that it was not unusual for teachers to hold off on granting a 4th BB for 20 years or more. I think it is unrealistic for traditional teachers to play "I gotta a secret" with the students for extended periods of time and then deride that student when they make it to the door as "proof of unworthiness". GM Koo has accellerated his teaching to address this, but it has taken him watching the art disappearing before his eyes in a mere 2 or 3 generations to get him to that place. On the other hand, I have watched the turn-over in our sword school at some 200 or 300% simply because the students seem to think that they should be making BB in a year or two like in, say, some TKD schools. I only recently began learning cutting practice after three years of hyung study-- and by traditional terms thats the equivalent of "over-night". In like manner, traditional Kumdo has 24 Bup (Forms-- in this case the term is used to identify "postures" rather than hyung) of which I have only truely learned the first 5 which are most commonly identified with Kumdos' Japanese cousin, Kendo. I am passing familiar with about another 10 postures, and again, by traditional standards this has happened pretty much in no time at all (three years). I have no idea of what it is going to take to get students to understand that KMA are less a novel activity than a lifestyle to which one commits. As for Franks' comment about "... I think that since Korea has its own martial culture and America does not, perhaps he has it backwards. I do not think that Korean Dojangs imitate American ones...." I honestly get confused about who is imitating who about what. Where I get annoyed (and not a little bitter) is where it seems that whatever is being imitated almost always seems to be the worst that can be offered. For instance, we have been talking about sword arts and its is a documented fact that the Korean culture has had a sword Form of its own for generations. So how come the many entities that Anthony mentioned in HIS post are put together by folks who have a need to make stuff up? Why don't they make time time and commitment necessary to learn the "real deal" and pass THAT along? Along these lines I go back to the exchanges we had a few months ago about people taking weapons/techniques from other arts and incorporating them into KMA. Korean arts have soh bong, dan bong, Jang Bong ("chang bong"?) and sword, cane, rope, etc. How come folks don't learn these weapons first and pass this along before introducing disparate material from other cultures? And don't get me started about the folks who note the sudden interest in some new fad and suddenly "reveal" that KMA has had that activity albeit in a secret venue all along. There just isn't enough bandwidth for my response and I couldn't share it in polite company, anyhow. BTW: There was a very good book written a few years back on the SOHEI (Japanese warrior monks). I am still trying to identify the author and publisher (help). Does anyone know if any work was likewise done on the Korean warrior monks, specifically the ones who organized the resistance to the Japanese in 1592-97? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 01:09:48 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Short sword post Michael Choi: I'm glad you liked the post. I study in a Hapkido in a Kidohae school (Huk Chu Kwan) and I would agree with you. The juk-to is used almost exclusively but when sabre class weapons are employed they are mismatched with short, straight sword techniques suitable for the standard, double edged sword. Craig: I have compiled a short list of dojangs in the US and Canada. You can contact me privately about it if you'd like. I believe that only Ron Mottern and I maintain sites in english about the art of Haidong Gumdo (as opposed to advertising a dojang). Mr Payne: Yes, I was referring to the same art. Most of the dojangs I've seen here recently are offering Hae Dong Kumdo in addition to Tukgong Moosul. It's still not very widespread but people have heard of it. A few months ago there was a long article in the Korea Times relating the struggle between two masters for rights to the name and true lineage of the art. Such a familiar tale. Master Clay: I quite agree with you but the perception among people I know here seems to be that this style of multidisciplinary school is American in style regardless of the reality of the situation. That's why I called them "so called American style..." It is also seen as necessary for managing a successful school in the states. Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo ------------------------------ From: "Patrick L" Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 14:50:26 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Pills / Nature / Ung gotta go! All, >Keep popping those vitamins and you'll eventually get a bad case of kidney >stones. the only way to get your nutriants is the natural way, by eating >herbs. And use garlic rather than antibiotics, it's anti bacterial and anti >virus. gary< I went up into the hills behind my house looking for some natural garlic. Seems the coyotes like it too and now I have a case of intestinal worms. On the good side (I guess), nature calls much more frequently :} Don't get in my WAY, Patrick just kidding _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Pratt" Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2001 09:16:20 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Kim retains WTF presidency Note that the article even mentions the ITF! From today's Korea Times Kim Un-yong Retains WTF Presidency - -- WTF Amends Taekwondo Competition Rules -- By Kim Cheong-won Staff Reporter South Korea’s Kim Un-yong was re-elected unanimously to the presidency of the World Taekwondo Federatoin (WTF) on Wednesday during the 15th session of the WTF in Cheju Island. The WTF was originally set to hold a presidential election for the first time since its foundation in 1973. However, Kim’s opponent, WTF vice president Josiah Henson of the U.S., declined to run saying it was, ``in the belief that Kim’s retaining the presidency would better serve the development of taekwondo,’’ Yonhap News Agency reported. Kim was elected eight times to four-year terms as the WTF president but has never been challenged by other candidates. Before the election, the session approved revisions of the taekwondo rules, which will go into effect July 1 in time for the 2002 Busan Asian Games and the 2002 Tokyo Taekwondo World Cup competition. Under the new rules, taekwondo athletes will be given two points for hitting the opponent's face, one point for hitting a portion of his or her body and one point for downing the opponent. In the current competition rules, a valid point is awarded only when it is delivered both `accurately' and `powerfully' and each scoring technique earns one point. The revisions also enlarge the official competition area from the current 8m x 8m to 10m x 10m while shortening the duration of the contest for female competitors to 2 minutes from 3 minutes. During the session, the federation tapped the sole candidate Tokyo as the venue for the 2002 Taekwondo World Cup. Germany’s Garmisch was selected as the venue for the 2003 taekwondo championships, defeating Perth of Australia, and Long Beach of the United States. Taekwondo, the Korean martial art, debuted as an official sport at the 2000 Sydney Olympics and was adopted as an official event last year from the Athens Olympic Games in 2004. Currently, there are two governing bodies for the sport- the North Korea- led International Taekwondo Federation (ITF), and the South-led WTF. The WTF boasts a membership of over 160 countries and over 40 million people practicing the martial art worldwide. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 01 Nov 2001 16:55:44 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #614 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!