From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #618 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 4 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 618 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #617 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #617 (CORRECTION) the_dojang: Black belts the_dojang: Students the_dojang: from Korea.net the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #617 the_dojang: Judging A School the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dizzy S." Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:21:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #617 Illona wrote: <<<>> Well, the saying is as old as I've been in MA. I found my new dojang with that saying ("you can tell how good a school is by how many black belts they have"). This school does not "market" black belts. It takes 3 years (for adults) to 4 years (for children) of blood, sweat, and tears to get that BB. And my instructor puts it bluntly clear to a new student that it does take a while to reach BB. He always tells us, "don't worry about the long term goal (getting to BB) right now. Work on technique, ect for the next level. Don't rush it." We do have new students who come in and quit, cause "they think" it takes too long to reach BB in here. I'm thinking, "TSD is no where near as long as some arts that take 10 years to reach BB" lol. <<<>>> I surely hope not lol. You're not selling them a burger lol. <<<>>> I had experience with a McDojang. I wish everyone could, only because they would know what dojang NOT to join. They DID market black belts, and they didn't worry about technique, the self defence end of MA, and the instructor was a jurk at the same time (he had a major ego problem). I don't ALWAYS use the saying either. I know of a school around here that has two BB's, but the instructor is awsome. He is pleasent, understanding, tough on you, but yet, he is REALLY funny (kinda like my instructor). I train there once in a while when my dojang is closed. I also know of a school that has no BB's yet (newly opened school) but it's another good school (two of my old friends from my old job train there). Sorry I didn't make myself clear in the last post :o) I ramble sometimes lol. Tang Soo! Dizzy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 15:17:49 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #617 (CORRECTION) I apologize. I was WRONG. The Taekwondo-ists who know probably are crying foul, while the Taekwondo-ists who don't know have misinformation. I found my 1994 WTF Handbook and for October 7, 1989 the list of the new Executive Council was made public. According to the 1994 WTF Handbook the Vice Presidents of WTF are: Josiah Henson (USA) Adbel Karim Darwish (Egypt) Chong Woo Lee (Korea) Manuel Marco Saila (Spain) Woon Kyu Uhm (Korea) Plus, I double-checked the business card that I have. According to it, Monsieur Woon-kyu Uhm is a member of the Korea Sports Council, Vice President of Kukkiwon, and Vice President of the World Taekwondo Federation. Sounds like he has a full plate. Sorry about the slip up on my part. Michael Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 13:32:42 PST Subject: the_dojang: Black belts > <<< pretty recent and being spread around by alot of these martial art > consulting companies to encourage schools to market out black belts .... >>> > > Well, the saying is as old as I've been in MA. I found my new dojang with > that saying ("you can tell how good a school is by how many black belts they > have"). I don't believe I've ever heard it before, but then I haven't heard everything over the years. Given the popular "Blackbelt Is Our Goal" approach, many quit once obtaining their 1st Dan. At 1st Dan one is only an experienced beginner. It is good to see worthy people progress beyond this stage. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Sat, 03 Nov 2001 23:10:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Students Illona writes: > Yes, it is sad. I think as a martial arts instructor with a martial arts > school you need to make a decision. Are you a martial arts school or a Day > Care Center ? Are you a martial arts school or a gym or jazzercise studio ? > > Believe me ... I get more than enough exercise doing martial art workouts > ... I don't need to take a jazzercise class too. > > But that is just my opinion ... Hi Illona: Back in the old days, I decided that MY school was not a jazzercise school. I made up my mind to run a martial art school the way my teacher taught it to me. Come to think of it, my teacher did not treat all of the students like he treated me, I guess I was one of the "lucky" ones who learned "real" martial arts from him -- blood, bruises, and broken bones and all. When I opened my own school, I taught it as I learned it. As the years passed, I became tired of personally paying the rent etc. etc. I realized that running a martial art school the way "I" was taught it was not feasible. Moreover, after returning to University to learn more about Exercise Science, I found out that some of the old ways were dead wrong. Now, I teach a variety of classes just to keep the doors open. The people in those classes get exactly what they want, and I continuously encourage them to higher levels in the hope they will join the "core group". In the meantime, I also have classes for those who wish to do it the "old" way, (or at least a bit like the old way). Have I sold out????? The people who are in the old fashioned martial arts classes don't think so. They realize that, if it was not for the rest of our students, none of us would not have a place to train. In fact, we have come to appreciate that not everyone wants to go home sweaty, tired, and bruised from training the old way. We now have a nice coalition of students who understand each other's needs and wants, appreciate it for what it is, and encourage each other to get the most out of training at our school. Our doors swing both ways. If a student feels ready to go for the gusto, we accept him or her with the same enthusiasm as we accept the fact that some of the older gang no longer can hack the pace of our high intensity class. Let's face it, there is only a small percentage of people who want to train extremely hard. If I only accepted those who could, I would not have children in my school, and I would not have seniors in my school, and I would have very few women in my school. All of these groups make a tremendous contribution to our school, and I for one appreciate that. Moreover, some of my best "hard core" students were once kids. They simply moved into the tougher classes when they were ready. Is the following training regimine more what you had in mind about real martial art training? In the old days I led all classes myself, and I ruled with the Jook Do. My lone female student received the same treatment as men, and NO children were allowed. We trained for a minimum of two hours (most stayed for three hours) per night four times a week (weekends were for seminars, and tournament travel). We did not do sit-ups, push-ups, kicks, punches, etc. by the dozen, we literally did them by the thousand. Falling was done on the bare floor; after all, there are no mats outside -- right! In Winter, we trained barefoot in the snow in the park adjacent to my school, and the only heat in our building we generated in our training. In fact, when I opened my school I had to thaw the aluminum door with a torch to take the ice off -- no bull here! The heat was just enough to keep our "shower" from freezing up, and we turned it off as soon as we came in. I doubt if many folks on this list today would survive on of my "old" classes, they were brutal to the point where many students would throw up and come back to train (after they cleaned their mess). We took showers under a cold water hose hooked up overtop of the sump hole. We pounded the striking pole by the hour, and bloodstains were all over the place. In fact, we would do so many sit-ups that we literally wore the skin off our butt, and many students had bloodstains on their seats. We quite doing demos, because people would leave in disgust. It seemed that some people thought our training methods, realistic self-defense that used our crash dummies without any regard to their health, and falling on concrete was a bit too insane to watch. We were soooo misunderstood. Testing was done one at the time, and it literally took days. To be eligible to test required a very strong physical fitness test that showed no mercy. No Chinese splits - no yellow belt. Can't do a thousand stride jumps - no Orange Belt, Can't kick a hole in the gypsum wall behind you - no brown belt. After being completely exhausted (by design), a student had to make all his or her breaks (and there were lots of them). Fail even one break, and you would fail the test. I quit allowing spectators at testing after the parents of my lone female student left the building (but not before stopping at the door to yell "Timmerman, you are cary, you should be locked up". Naturally this so distressed my poor female student that she told her folks to get lost and leave us to our training. So much for family spirit:( >You can tell a good school by the number of black belts they hold on to>. In my first 18 years of running my school, ONE student managed to pass to Black Belt. This man literally would eat glass, or let a cigarette burn out on his arm while having a nice conversation with you. Pain was something we could not show in our school, talking was out of the question, and laughing was cause for instant dismissal. Was that succes?????? By the way, I managed to hold on to him for as long as he was able to continue training. Unfortunately, this training was no as long lived as we had hoped for -- it seems that our training methods were a just a tad too hard on the body. Unfortunately for him, I did not realize this until I gained more experience about my responsibilities to my students. Even in my hard core workout today, we no longer train that way. After age brought me more experience (and understanding what training really is all about) I traded my cave man ways for something that is infinitely more important than feeding my ego by killing my students. Martial arts thankfully has many phases. I have moved on, and my students no longer are subjected to my warped sense of what I thought martial arts was all about. Today, my students train in relative safety, and we encourage them instead of trying our best to break their spirit. I am equally proud of ALL my my students, regardless of which program they choose to follow. It is hard to teach an old dog new tricks, but not impossible:) I share this with you not because I am proud of my past. I simply hope to enlighten some of our member to the fact that training sensibly does not equate selling out. IMHO, creating an environment where seniors, women, and children can train in safety helps keep martial arts alive. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 17:56:20 PST Subject: the_dojang: from Korea.net 2 Korean Women Win Golds in Taekwondo Championships November 4, 2001 South Korea's Chung Jae-eun took gold in the women's bantamweight (47-51kg) final to top the podium while her teammate Chang Ji-won added another gold, defeating Iridia Salazar of Mexico at the World Taekwondo Championships in Jeju Island on Saturday night. Sydney Olympic gold medalist Chung, 22, took an early lead and never looked back, storming through for a 4-3 victory over Gemma Magria of Spain. It is third World Championships title for Chung following victories in 1997 and 1999. Chang Ji-won, who was defeated by Chung for the qualification match for the 2000 Sydney Olympics, beat her opponent with 6-2 victory in the featherweight division. Spain's Sonia Reyes and Zeynep Murat of Turkey shared third place. Meanwhile, Kang Nam-won of South Korea edged out Peter Lopez of the U.S. 5-4 in the men's bantamweight final to give Korea its first gold in the men's event. The 1998 Bangkok Asian Games gold medalist Kang, 22, who also topped the Asian Championships twice in 1998 and 2000, overpowered his opponent with more technical mastery. In the men's featherweight division, Niyamaddin Pashayev of Azerbaijan won the gold medal while Carlo Molfetta of Italy took silver and Abdullah Sertcelik of Turkey came in third to show that the rest of the world are catching up fast with the Koreans at their national sport. ------------------------------ From: "Richard Zaruba" Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:22:32 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #617 In a message dated 11/3/2001 2:29:41 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: >You ever hear of the old saying, "you can tell a good martial arts school >by how many black belts they have." Which means they CAN hold students. But >this doesn't apply to newly opened dojangs. Word of mouth is the best way >to go on those. This doesn't apply to a lot of dojangs. Depending on the circumstances a dojang may not have many black belts around. I only have four around on a regular basis at my dojang, why? Because most of my students are military and university students. I have several black belts and advanced students that come back on a regular basis for training each year that have moved or been transferred. If you truly want to know the quality of a dojang, look at the quality of the intermediate and advanced students. A good instructor with a solid knowledge of his art will have high quality intermediate and advanced students. A poor instructor will normally have marginal quality students except for the naturally talented. In a good dojang the quality is reflected in the class overall. Respectfully, Rich ------------------------------ From: "Mac" Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 19:48:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Judging A School From: MissIllona@aol.com <> I'm with you Miss Illona. I think it would be nice to have a bunch of BBs and be able to have an advanced curriculum for their continued training. But that in itself is not necessarily the mark of a good school (the number of BBs), but the quality of the instruction and students (actually - at any level). I've had several young students that kind of topped out and wasn't able to learn the material (or remember what they had learned) quit my class - only to find out that they went to another school and got their BBs. I don't artificially hold them back, but I'm not going to promote someone to dan rank if they can't perform the basics or remember their forms. I'm not that hard either. So if they went to another school and were able to attain their cho-dan: must have been a Mac-Dojang - because they were in no way qualified. So yes, a school full of black belts wouldn't necessarily impress me - but it would if they were very good. Mac ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 18:39:02 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #618 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!