From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #619 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 5 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 619 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: breakfalls the_dojang: Length of training times the_dojang: Choices the_dojang: RE:Old Times the_dojang: RE:Basics? Again? the_dojang: Students the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #615 - Teach your children well the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: ChunjiDo@aol.com Date: Sun, 04 Nov 2001 21:53:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: breakfalls "LOL! I thought that was funny :o) We have a suspended floor in my dojang, and it does "bounce" when ya fall. I donno what's under the wood part, but it's got a lotta "give" to it. The only downside to a suspended floor is if the person next to you is slightly on the heavier side, and you try to do jumping jacks ... when he/she comes down when your going up, and almost hit the ceiling lol. Been there lol. Tang Soo! Dizzy" LOL. we're on linoleum on top o' concrete right now. not much choice in the matter. i got the crash mat for a customer who decided he couldnt afford it right now. so it's mine. we HAVE to have something like that or we just cant do the falls and rolls. since all my students are new and white belts i cant have them rolling around on concrete....yet ;). otherwise, i'd lose all my new students...lol. melinda ------------------------------ From: "Andrew Pratt" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 18:27:17 +0900 Subject: the_dojang: Length of training times Dear Bruce, You recently wrote: >> with the student's impatience and 2.) the teachers' niggardliness. As GM Koo has shared with me a number of times, most of the "good stuff" associated with Korean sword tradition was not taught until 4th BB and he reports that it was not unusual for teachers to hold off on granting a 4th BB for 20 years or more. I think it is unrealistic for traditional teachers to play "I gotta a secret" with the students for extended periods of time and then deride that student when they make it to the door as "proof of unworthiness". GM Koo has accellerated his teaching to address this, but it << No offence Bruce but when I read statements like the above it just makes me shake violently, sweat buckets, and spit foam. It seems unlikely to me that traditional teachers (whatever that might mean) would hold back specific techniques for 20 years (particularly since the dan system is so recent). Traditionally I would have thought that you would want your soldiers to become as proficient as possible as quickly as possible. That would suggest a lack of 'secret techniques.' Of course, historically Korea's martial systems have been concentrated in the military structure where learning techniques may have been associated with one's rise within the military system. Thus 'secret techniques' are those learned by higher military ranks and indeed they may not even have been sword techniques at all but battle tactics. Since Korea had not suffered the extended military campaigns that blighted Japan and China (probably the longest period of internal conflict was during the 3-kingdom's period followed by the external Mongol and the Hideyoshi invasions) learning martial arts skills may not have been that deeply imbedded in common society. Given the master-student basis of Korean society it is possible that students followed particular masters for long periods. However, rather than secrets I follow the gist of other posters in that the master's art isn't static but is always developing and the master is always learning new things and trying to pass them on (unless they are a McDojang). Goals of 'learning the complete curriculum' always remain unfulfilled because no matter how fast the student learns, the master is always finding something new to teach. (Sorry, seem to have strayed into another thread here). Considering that belts are a new system it seems odd to associate the concept of 'traditional' teaching systems with the belt system. Andrew ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 06:06:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: Choices <> Rudy, I also made that same decision ... and I also made the decision at the same time NOT to teach just like my old teacher ... and the teachers I had before him. When we came up it was rugged ... and being a woman and training back then ... it was VERY rugged to be a woman in the arts. But my students don't have to come up exactly like I did ... I found better ways to teach them ... ways to teach them without them fearing me and getting hit with a stick ... or breaking a bone each month ... going home each night from sparring with bloody lips or black eyes. Closing the doors ... shutting the windows ... in the summertime ... and working out till you drop. Training in the winter with no heaters was common ... we didn't need no stinkin' heaters ! But that is the past ... and it has nothing to do with my comment to Dizzy. I was commenting on the counting of black belts in a dojang as to quality of the school and not being a jazzercise club. I also pay rent each month ... and it is tough some months ... but I chose to do it this way. Some chose to do it other ways. But it was a choice they had to make ... just as it was a choice for me to make. I choose not to put an aerobics class in here ... just martial arts. And this makes me happy. Illona ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:24:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Old Times Dear Rudy: Thanks for the walk down Memory Lane. It has been quite a while since I have participated in Martial-Arts-as-Self-Abusive-Behavior. When I think back on the way the classes in which I participated would rake themselves over the coals I wince. Boy, did WE ever have it wrong! Looking back, I think the mindset was that if we were practicing a martial art, then the training had to be martial. In our minds "martial" meant "military" and "military" equated to all the SGT ROCK, Basic Training, and self-abasing Samurai warrior stereotypes we could conjur-up. I remember eating up Peter Urbans' book and believing every page to be gospel. I remember applying the maintstay of American lifestyle ("If some is good; more is better") in every facet of my martial pursuits. Moderation was for slackers, as was intellectualism, asking questions, research and common sense. From the advantage of advanced years I can look back and see that much like an orthodox faith such as Roman Catholcism or Shiia Islam, one can take sound principles and wonderful sytems of training and values and pervert it just about anyway one cares to. For myself, I continue to push myself to execute aerial kicks, bang away on a striking post, study hyung, delve into traditions and history, and slam around on the mat with everybody else. Do I advocate this for others? Hell, no. This is my decision--- the way I have decided to conduct my life. Do I press this on others? Nope. People are going to stay in my classes or leave my classes independent of anything I say or do. Do I make this available to others? Yep. People who ask get told. People who seek will find. People who knock find me opening the door to them. But I am getting just a bit too old to spend my time trying to convince people that what I have to offer or share is good for them and cajolling them to stick with it.(Hell, you have seen some of the responses to my thoughts on some subjects right here on the Net! And this is from within a culture of individuals who one might easily assume are as invested in the furtherance of MA as I!). Now, having said ALL of that--- let me also say "thank you". I am saying "thank you" to you--- and to M West, and to Dr. Kimm and all the other old-timers who have made the sacrifices to keep making traditional arts available to us. I have no real interest in going back to the way we used to train, but I am very glad that whatever direction I might take forward there are still some dependable guiding lights around to help keep my journey on the straight and narrow. BTW: Talked to Kevin Sunday. He mentioned an up-coming event in your neck of the woods. How about some details and I will post in on my website as well. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 08:39:00 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Basics? Again? Dear Mac: "....I've had several young students that kind of topped out and wasn't able to learn the material (or remember what they had learned) quit my class - only to find out that they went to another school and got their BBs. I don't artificially hold them back, but I'm not going to promote someone to dan rank if they can't perform the basics or remember their forms. I'm not that hard either......" I wish I could find the answer to this. What I hear over and over from advanced individuals that I bump into is that there is no place for advanced individuals to go to further their training. I had cut way back on the seminars that I was doing simply because when I would introduce more sophisticated material the class couldn't absorb it. Not enough foundation. Flipping the coin over, when I would broach the subject of participating in a seminar to advanced individuals most advised me that they didn't need to spend good time and money to attend yet one more examination of the basics. When I made suggestions to MA authority figures such as GM Myung about conducting a seminar exclusively for upper-ranking balts he started dividing his seminars into one day for lower belts and the other for upper ranks--- which was an improvement. Later this seemed to deteriorate into one day for empty hand and the other day for weapons and all was-- once again--- fundamentals. Its like a good-news-bad-news joke. I think people are willing to teach students more sophisticated stuff if the student will make the commitment to stick around to learn it. But on the other hand students won't stick around unless they believe that they are progressing and are not kept in a contrived loop of basic material without promise of something more. As far as the issue about Black Belts. Well, I think what people are saying is that a good school can be measured by the number of students who make a sound commitment to train regular and train often and this behavior is most often associated with BB students. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 05:55:26 EST Subject: the_dojang: Students In a message dated 11/4/2001 6:09:22 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: <> Rudy, being a woman who has trained in the arts for over 30 years I can relate to your hard core days of training. And I don't believe I ever said that was the way we HAD to train in order to get a good workout. I agree that we have to move on with our teaching and the training has to change with the ages. Taking the time to teach the proper way to kick and punch and move ... saves the students from hurting themselves (hips, knees, backs, necks from injuries) ... and enables them to train for many many years. I don't think I said otherwise. I never said we had to run in the snow barefoot or beat our knuckles bloody against brick walls to get a good workout and not consider ourselves a jazzercise club. I said we are either a martial arts school teaching martial arts and getting a good workout (for kids, teens, adults and seniors ... separate classes if need be) ... or a jazzercise class with ear splitting music. Rudy, I choose to teach martial arts with a good workout involved (without battering my students around and teaching in a sensible way) ... which I have seen many other schools do also. To each his own. Illona ------------------------------ From: "David N. Beck" Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:26:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #615 - Teach your children well Bruce said: >I understand that teaching kids some aspects of KMA can be disconcerting. I >also understand that we MA teachers have misgivings about how the students >may use what we teach them, and, by extension, what liability we may incurr >if the student mis-uses what we teach them, yes? You must, then, appreciate >how I have stuck to the belief that MA is not now, nor has it ever been, >meant for general consumption by the public at-large. To give you a >parallel, I will remind you of incidents that came up during the Persian >Gulf War in which enlistees to the US military suddenly balked at going into >a combat area. The rationale they presented was, "well, gee, we enlisted in >the military for the benefits, but I never thought I would actually have to >go and fight!" MA training is the same thing, that way. Why are you learning >to punch, kick, throw and pin with power and accuracy if you don't want to >use such skills and ability when the situation presents itself? Why would >you teach kids to kick, punch, throw or pin an opponent unless you will >willing to accept the responsibility that a situation might arise in which >the kid would use their skills? Are you aware what a confusing mixed message >can be sent to kids with their immature intellectual abilities---- here's >how to incur pain and damage, but thats not good, so don't do this. What's >worse is to tell the kids that such skills are only to be used under the >"right circumstances." Libby, if the kid was intellectually developed >enought to make that determination they would not need have the educational >process we put them through in our school systems! They would essentially >already BE adults!. > I disagree. About 5-6 years old most children develop the ability to empathize - to be able to put themselves in another's shoes. Once that's happened they CAN make the determination of when and when not to use what they're taught. At that point they are developed enough to distinguish different circumstances -- running is ok on the soccer field, not in the house, etc. You need clear distinctions between life & death type techniques versus what you do versus a bully, yes; with clear examples, yes; but I think you're selling kids short. >When it comes to this issue of educating folks---especially kids--- in KMA I >come back to the line from APOCALYPSE NOW when Capt Willard states, "Never >get out of the boat..... unless you are willing to go all the way." Most of them are there because it looks fun and their parents want the self-development aspects for them. They aren't making that kind of a decision. Nearly all the s-d situations they face will be bully situations. Most will always consider MA training a sport or a hobby, as will the general public. A very few will come to understand the life & death background, train seriously, and become warriors. Agreed, that's always going to be a small percentage. But the more people exposed to MA, the better. David N. Beck, WATT Lead Engineer Internet: David.Beck@usa.alcatel.com Phone: 972-519-3103 Address: MS SDVS-2, 1000 Coit Road, Plano, Texas 75075 ** Opinions expressed are not those of Alcatel USA ** ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 05 Nov 2001 8:37:30 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #619 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. 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