From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #622 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 7 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 622 In this issue: the_dojang: Children as weapons the_dojang: RE:Some thoughts that I shared with Andrew the_dojang: RE:Who'll let the dogs out? the_dojang: Book info the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Dave Weller Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 10:34:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Children as weapons Mr Beck posted: From: "David N. Beck" No, they're not little adults. They need to play, to create, to grow emotionally and intellectually as well as physically. But they will rise or sink to the level of your expectations more often than not. I just think your level of expectations is a little low. >unsnip< Amen Mr. Beck! If you tell them they can't succeed you assure failure. If you tell them they CAN succeed, success is certain. Kids are great! Have a couple of six year old newbys that have as much heart as any adult. Technically poor(for now) but with a willingness to learn that is superb! These boys will go far, as long as we are there to lead them. My biggest challenge is getting one of these boys to keep his tongue in his mouth... have a groovy day, dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 11:19:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Some thoughts that I shared with Andrew Dear Folks: Andrew was kind enough to contact me off-line with many of his thoughts on my previous post. I have also rcvd a few queries off-line with people wondering just where all my questions are going and what direction my research is actually taking. I have to admit that sometimes it must seem pretty convoluted so I thought I would tease out a couple of main points that I shared with Andrew. My apologies in advance for the bandwidth use. ".....I thought I would mirror some of your thoughts back to you in terms of how I imagine the overall development of Korean martial traditions.....What I am finding is that whether I am searching out Korean or Chinese traditions things get very tentative for periods prior to the Mongols (Yuan Dyn). I also find that while most MA traditions like to talk about their relationships to historic institutions such as the Shaolin temple, most of the traditions which I believe had a significant impact on the development of KMA trace themselves back no further than the early years of the Ming dynasty. Interestingly, the Japanese traditions are in pretty much the same boat with the significant exception of the Tesshin Katori Shinto Ryu and even THEY don't go back much farther than the beginning of the 1300-s. All-in-all, then, I am tending to focus my work from about 1350 and forward to about the time of the Independence Movement in the 1920-s. Roughly the entire Yi Dyn.....The martial traditions of the Japanese culture have so over-shadowed the Korean traditions that Japanese Ryu, biomechanics, tactics and strategies have become the defacto standard by which all other Oriental MT are gauged. Well, that sucks! Its bad enough that the Japanese trashed the Korean culture from 1910 to 1945, but imagine how it must feel for a culture to have re-patriated Koreans pushing Japanese arts albeit with Korean terminology on them even as they watch their own traditions die! I recently finished examining TANG SOO DO (M Kang Uk Lee, 1998) and found that everyone of his hyung were essentially Korean interpretations of Japanese versions of the Okinawan style of the Southern Chinese Boxing. And from what I gather this is touted as one of the more accurate representations of traditions Korean MA. I see the same thing with Korean wrestling, swordsmanship, archery and other traditions. The reason that I am indulging in this brief rant is that my work is based on a belief that the Korean MT evolved in a way very different from the defacto standard suggested by the Japanese traditions. And whenever MT are found to differ from the Japanese standards they are then judged inferior or inadequate (all evidence to the contrary) ......My position (and by the way the focus of my research) is that Korea was to the Northern Chinese MT what Okinawa was to the Southern Chinese MT--- and almost in the same time frame. a) Both Okinawa and Korea experienced a meaningful influx of MT during the Ming dyn and probably both due to the predations of the Wako, or Japanese pirates. b) Both Okinawa and Korea took the influences of Ming and post-Ming MT and mixed them with indigeous MT of their own culture. c) Both Korea and Okinawa passed their traditions down informal patrilinear lines from teacher to pupil, often times within a family constellation. Both Okinawa and Korea had established military institutions including armies and police forces sanctioned and supported by the government which enjoyed a symbiotic relationship with the MT traditions practiced in the community. d) Both Okinawa and Korea were exposed to Japanese intervention (wherein MT and military institutions were pretty much one in the same and reserved to the warrior elite and the ruling class) with two very different outcomes. In Okinawa the MT were invited into the Japanese culture, whereas in Korea the MT were surpressed as aligned with the Independence Movement. e) The challenge now is to go back and identify and provide proper recognition to the Chinese influences as well as the host of other influences that contributed to the Korean MT. f) What makes this such a challenge is that unlike to compulsive way in which the Japanese recorded their lineage and traditions, the Koreans MT were passed on in a much more informal way. To use a simile' in the US culture I think about the way in which people learn to shoot rifles. Certainly one can learn these skills in the military which has its own way of doing things. There are even civilian traditions such as the National Rifle Assn (NRA) which have their own shooting methods, traditions and protocols. Then there are the thousands of people who learned to shoot and hunt by simply going out with family members or local clubs and picking up skills in that fashion. I suspect that the Korean MT traditions developed and survived in very much the same fashion. The important part of this research is not to place institutional limits on what may have transpired in Korean institutional military culture. Just like whatever goes on in our modern army here in the US influences what happens to the county's cultural martial traditions so the various machinations of the Korean government influenced the nature of the MT of the Korean culture. Using my simile' of rifle shooting, it is easy to see attitudes and policies of the US government impact the ownership and use of rifles. Its also easy to see that participation in the military and use of military literature and training materials will produce one understanding of the use of weaponry. It is also easy to see that association with family members, clubs, para-military groups, ranges and clandestine organizations can all influence the manner in which one views rifles and their use. I believe this is exactly what we are dealing with in the development of KMT. I know Neo-Confucianists are always trotted out as the whipping-boys for the failure of institutional military efforts for generations. Maybe this holds water at the governmental level just like the current rabid debates over gun-control, prayer-in-school, and birth-control/abortion/right-to-life here in the States. But the fact is, at the community level, people own guns, pray when they feel like it, and follow their own conscience about family planning. The Yi dyn apparently outlawed betting on Soo Bahk matches in the 1300-s. It didn't, however, outlaw Soo Bahk, or its related sport, Taek Kyon. And there were people practicing Taek Kyon up to and after WW II and the Korean War--- Neo-Confucianism not withstanding. I understand that until just after WW II there were still five traditional styles of Korean swordsmanship practiced in Korea and Confucianism didn't stop that. In fact history supports that community-based MT were as important as institutional military in protecting the interests of the Korean people. The effort now is to identify those influences that would have shapped community-oriented practice and perpetuation of KMT. There are a lot of weak spots and I am more than a little miffed that there aren't more Koreans jumping in to help out. BTW: Do you have any good resources for examining the Korean warrior monks and monk personalities that led many of the grassroots efforts during such events such as the 1592 Invasion? After the MYDBTJ in 1795 have there been any other published military manuals, treatise or book (before or after) that can still be had? ...." It would be great to hear from people on the Net regarding this. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 12:22:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Who'll let the dogs out? Dear Michael: :....So, since Koreans did not assign much social value to martial arts, I believe that Koreans made little effort, if any, to preserve their martial arts tradition, outside of the military..." And yet, having said all of that, when Lee wrote the MYTBTJ in 1795 he was able to draw on over 200 various works on military training, tactics, practices, strategies, etc.with the earliest resource from perhaps 1450. What that suggests to me is that SOMEONE was keeping track of things military and jotting them down and over a 300 year period!. And what about such things as the warrior monks who rallied the people during various times such as the Invasions in 1592 and 1597? Has noone written anything about them? What about this monk who taught GM Lee Joo Bang UM/YANG KWON BUP which he has based his HWARANGDO on? Has noone tracked that person down and got the history on him, or his order or their practices? What about the master ("Old Man Lee") who taught GM Ji his Taek Kyon material? Has noone run him down and gotten HIS story? How about the SHIP PAL KI master who instructed GM Seo? Has anyone investigated him? Or the KOREAN SHIP PAL KI ASSN? Has anyone bothered to track them down and get their story or observe their practice and see where it fits into the picture? There is a teacher in Sydney, AUS who supposedly teaches one of the last versions of traditional Korean sword, unrelated to Japanese sword. I have mentioned him at least twice on this Net and brought this fact up to at least two people who reside in the LAND DOWN-UNDA. Nothing. I contacted M Choi down in ElPaso, TX reagrding GM Jang, Im Mok. Not a word-- and that after he told me on the phone that all I had to do was put my questions in a letter (which I did) and he would work with a student to get them answered. I think it is just a bit TOO easy to trot out the Neo-Confucianists and say that there was some sort of cultural prohibition against things martial. History doesn't support it, evidence and documentation doesn't supoort it, and the existence of the Korean DMZ (arguably the most militarized square miles on the planet) as I write this doesn't support it. On the other hand, I am curiously aware that invoking such generalizations as "Confucianism" conveniently covers a myriad of sins such as apathy, sloth and pride. Am I to understand that Korean martial traditionalists will brook the possiblity that one day a measily 3rd BB from the American Midwest will know more about their traditions and history than they do? Or is this thing I am running into about Korean MT not unlike the dynamic one sees with a fat dog with a bone. He is not particularly interested in the bone anymore than most KMT practitioners are with their heritage. BUT, he's not about to let someone else have it, just because. Thoughts? Comments? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 7:26:46 PST Subject: the_dojang: Book info Forwarded message, from the USTU. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com - ------------------------------------------ You might be interested in a new book by USTU Medical Coordinator Trish Bare Grounds. Information about it can be found at: http://www.turtlepress.com/shopexd.asp?id=281 ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 8:27:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #622 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!