From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #623 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 7 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 623 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #622 the_dojang: RE: Bruce's Work the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #622 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Master Frank Clay" Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:35:16 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #622 Bruce, Please bear in mind that the Chung Do Kwan was the first kwan to oopen under Govornor Abe in 1944 by Grandmaster Lee, Won Kuk. According to HIS words, Chung Do Kwan was Okinawa Te. Now as far as what you noticed about Kang Uk Lee.. you are wrong. Hwang Kee authored the Chil Sung. As far as Tang Soo Do being a truly Korea art, it is not. It is Koreanized Karate-Do, bearing in fact the same name as Funakoshi's version of Karate Do. This should not be strange, nor should it require research as there are charts showing which Kwan head learned what and founded what. Hwang Kee and Kang Uk Lee both published the same chart. Now, I would also bear in mind that the theories saying that all Korean Martial Art began in Japan, are also erroneos. The Koreans had had interaction with the Chinese before the Japanese had come into play. Heck, Monk Sosan Daesa is credited with introducing joint locks to both the Koreans AND the Japapnese, and is reputed to have used a cane to whip up on a bunch of samurai. He is also credited with being the one to truly introdcue the cane to Korean Martial Arts. Frank ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 15:49:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Bruce's Work Bruce, Thank you for taking the time to share some of your theory and work with us. Obviously, you have put in a lot of time and hard work. It is easy to see the problems, and understand your frustration. Its got to be tough researching something in a language you don't speak and in a country half a world away. Perhaps you should try having a go with some Korean historians, and particularly military historians. They may be more willing to help than a lot of Korean Martial Art Masters and probably know more but perhaps more as an aside than the main topic. (I remember reading in more than one history book that the Boxer Rebellion was instigated and largely led be young men's athletic groups. Always made me think of a rebellion led by YMCA members :)) The crux of the point may be a total lack of interest on the part of many or even most Korean Masters. Just like more than a few have written previously here, "whats important is the training." For example, so far as I know, I am the only member of my family interested in my family's history and geneology. Not that they are not interested in the family, they just don't care about anything other than the here and now, except maybe the not so distant future. And that pretty much extends across the board. Even though one of my personal hobbies has been collecting aboriginal artifacts since I was a small kid, I remember my father telling me exactly where a perfect point had been laying for months, uncovered by a small stream, and which he had passed by dozens of times. He simply was not interested enough in it to pick it up. I suspect that this type of disinterest may be more at fault than Korean Masters not wanting us to know. And by the way, an outsider coming to be known as the expert is not that uncommon in many fields. My 0.02. Danny Dunn <<<<<>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: "Michael Choi" Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 21:38:51 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #622 Yes, I confess that I consistently pull out the "neo-Confucianism" explanation. Mr. Sims brings out a good point about informal martial tradition. It appears that in Japan, martial arts, including fighting systems, were institutionalized and systematized repeatedly under the auspices of Japanese warloads. That would parallel "professionalization" of techniques like the professional, standardized instruction that our professional military receives. Korea did not pursue active promotion of martial arts on the scale of Japan. As Mr. Sim said, it was passed down from generation to generation informally. This makes it extremely difficult to verify if the fighting system is authentically Korean. What adds to the difficulty is the cultural misunderstanding and sometimes egotism that makes information inaccessible. Whether it's Hwarangdo's Joo Bang Lee, Hai Dong Gumdo, Hapkido, Ship Pal Ki, Kyung Dang, Sun Do, Sun Moo Do, Taek Kyuon, or Kuk Sool each is vying to promote itself as an au thentic and even superior martial art. Due to different cultural values, perhaps the heads of these various martial arts do not accept innocent questions about their martial arts posed by individuals unknown to them. Some may even be suspicious. It is a good sign that there are individuals investigating. Although some (older) martial arts masters may see this as a threat, I see this as a benefit to Korean martial arts. As for me, my own training philosophy is two-fold: one, to train in practical techniques that work and two, (more importantly) to develop a life philosophy that is honorable and compassionate, promoting integrity. As a Korean, I would like to train in techniques and strategies that authentic to my culture and in line with good moral beliefs and ideas of Korea. As an American, I'm open to techniques and strategies that will help to be a better martial artist and to understand martial arts better. The real challenge is to preserve as much authentic, ancient Korean martial arts while it's still possible. Song Duk Ki managed to pass down Taek Kyon in Korea. Hopefully the other Korean martial arts will be restored so they can perpetuated by posterity. Michael Make a difference, help support the relief efforts in the U.S. http://clubs.lycos.com/live/events/september11.asp ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 19:17:17 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #623 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!