From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #624 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 8 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 624 In this issue: the_dojang: Student the_dojang: RE: Tang Soo Do - Karate-Do the_dojang: saying farewell to KSW the_dojang: RE: Bruce's Work Re: the_dojang: RE: Tang Soo Do - Karate-Do the_dojang: Tang Soo Do history & American Values the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 01:31:36 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Student Michael writes: > As for me, my own training philosophy is two-fold: one, to train in > practical techniques that work and two, (more importantly) to develop a > life philosophy that is honorable and compassionate, promoting integrity. Hello Michael. You sound like the kind of student many of us would love to have. I wish you much success. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 09:14:53 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tang Soo Do - Karate-Do <<<<<<< It is Koreanized Karate-Do, bearing in fact the same name as Funakoshi's version of Karate Do. Frank>>>>>>>> Actually, Funakoshi used the Karate-Do name, but written "Empty Hand" rather than "China Hand" from about the time he moved to Japan from Okinawa. Tang Soo Do so far as I can determin has always been written "T'ang" or "Chinese" Hand Way. Are the forms So Rim Jang Kwan and Tae Kuek Kwan found in any of the Japanese or Okinawan arts? Frank, do you know the origin of these forms? Thanks. Danny Dunn ------------------------------ From: FGS & KVF Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 07:24:17 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: saying farewell to KSW I have spent the last 4 years studying KSW and have decided to call it quits. I have enjoyed my experience with my instructors and fellow students, but am moving on as KSW is not giving me what I need. I believe that KSW is a good art, but it is not all there is to MA or self-defense. KSW association's rules against studying other arts, its belief on testing often and promoting despite the demonstrated lack of skill, emphasis on air strikes, and the sheer number of techniques (226) have all prompted me to find a style that is open to learning from others, believes that it is demonstrated skill level that indicates testing and promotion time, (not just being there for a certain number of years,) uses focus mitts and kicking pads to give feedback to the students re: balance, power, technique and direction of force, and that focuses on self-defense techniques that are quickly learned and assimilated into the muscle memory. As a physical therapist and exercise physiologist, I have studied motor learning theory. The studies done on physical and mental learning have shown that people who are shown multiple new skills without the time to assimilate them, simply forget the previously taught skills. Muscle learning takes time and for it to become automatic (thought and action are one), the skills must be taught and practiced over a long period of time. Teaching 20 to 45 techniques every 3-6 months is not allowing enough time to integrate the techniques into the body. This is seen with higher belt students at BB testing and at my school, where the lower techniques are poorly executed or remembered b/c the students have gone on to the higher techniques and have not had either enuff time to practice the lower belt techniques or spent enuff time learning the lower belt requirements b/c they were promoting so quickly. Some of the students realize this and try to hold themselves back or just continue on b/c that is the association's way, and they don't know what to do. Other students don't seem to care that they are not showing proficiency or even memory of the skills b/c they just want the next belt. We have had some people quit at my school b/c they were either testing for BB or almost there, and they knew that their skill level was not up there, but had not known or were not allowed to slow down and properly take the time to acquire the skills. I find that sad, since those students did like the MA but were promoted so fast that their belt ranks exceeded their skill and comfort level. What I find sadder is the fact that there are many upper belts who have no idea or don't care (I don't know which) that their belt rank does not equal their skill level. They punch the air with their wrists bent, they kick and have no rechamber, they rush their techniques so that they don't do the angles or get the technique to even work. I am not saying that these are problems solely limited to KSW. I have seen and spoken with others in different organizations that have similar difficulties or problems, and people on this list have commented on the problems that they have encountered in their years of MA. However, I think considering the great skill levels of the upper dans in KSW, that they would be pushing for stricter standards. My instructors have been highly skilled BBs, who have run the school as the association wishes, altho they have tried to get their upper belts to be a little more proficient than many others when testing for BB. I took TKD originally and continued it for the first 2 years of my time in KSW. At the TKD school, we worked on hand, elbow, knee and foot strikes against pads and padded people. The skill level I developed in these basic techniques was around beginning intermediate, and then my TKD school closed and I did KSW solely for the next 2 years. My basic striking skills have not improved in the past 2 years with all the air training we do( BB friends of mine who have known me all this time have seen my strikes and mentioned that perhaps I should do some pad striking). I did get some pad kicking practice recently at my school but it was not often and not too many others were all that interested. However, I must say that when one first enters the MA, it is difficult to know what to look for. After 4 years, and associating with BBs and students from other arts and schools, I have learned what I need to look for in a school, and to be forthright in asking any future teacher of mine if what I want is what he has. Spunky ------------------------------ From: "Luc T. Nguyen" Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 10:25:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Bruce's Work > The crux of the point may be a total lack of interest on the part > of many or even most Korean Masters. Just like more than a few have written > previously here, "whats important is the training." May be the Korean Masters and Grand Masters did not have the proper training and aptitude to do this type of research? If we looks at these individuals, who are they, what are they 30 or so years ago when they were in their youth, we would know why. I have no doubt that all of these GMs are great Martial Artists, very wise in their experience, etc. but they could not be described as great intellectuals in today standards. They would not have the scientific tools and methodologies to conduct any type of systematic research in the origin of their arts. Many things that they know are given to them by words of mouth from their teachers and then, as with many things, memories fade and recollections change with time. Worse, some of them would even adapt their interpretation of history to their advantage. It's my $0.02 Luc Nguyen ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 9:08:01 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: Tang Soo Do - Karate-Do > Actually, Funakoshi used the Karate-Do name, but written "Empty Hand" rather > than "China Hand" from about the time he moved to Japan from Okinawa. Right, but he used both. Originally he used Karate-do (China hand way) and then later switched, along with others, to Karate-do (empty hand way) given the rise in Japanese nationalism. Yes? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 12:17:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Tang Soo Do history & American Values Frank Clay wrote a few correction to Bruce, saying: Please bear in mind that the Chung Do Kwan was the first kwan to oopen under Govornor Abe in 1944 by Grandmaster Lee, Won Kuk. According to HIS words, Chung Do Kwan was Okinawa Te. Now as far as what you noticed about Kang Uk Lee.. you are wrong. Hwang Kee authored the Chil Sung. As far as Tang Soo Do being a truly Korea art, it is not. It is Koreanized Karate-Do, bearing in fact the same name as Funakoshi's version of Karate Do. This should not be strange, nor should it require research as there are charts showing which Kwan head learned what and founded what. Hwang Kee and Kang Uk Lee both published the same chart. My addition: My review of Kang Uk Lee's new book is now out in the latest Journal of Asian Martial Arts. They did cut the table I wrote up talking about movement comparisons between Hwang and Lee, so I'll try to remember to post that here. Basically, the book is a good inexpensive reference work, but it doesn't add much to Hwang's book. In fact, Hwang's forms show more flowing and circular movements, while Lee's are closer in several ways to both Okinawan karate and Japanese karate than were Hwang's. Lee does have a wonderful lineage chart though, that Hwang does not have, that shows where various tangsudo instructors have gone and are currently teaching. He also has a few new old photos, which are interesting. Frank goes on to say: Now, I would also bear in mind that the theories saying that all Korean Martial Art began in Japan, are also erroneos. The Koreans had had interaction with the Chinese before the Japanese had come into play. Heck, Monk Sosan Daesa is credited with introducing joint locks to both the Koreans AND the Japapnese, and is reputed to have used a cane to whip up on a bunch of samurai. He is also credited with being the one to truly introdcue the cane to Korean Martial Arts. My reply: I'm don't think I agree. Sure, the Koreans had martial arts before the Japanese, but the only ones they practiced that seem to have been mostly Korean in nature were t'aeggyeon and ssireum. A lot of the other stuff was taken straight from the Chinese, but was practiced infrequently at best. The Korean were great Confucian scholars - they weren't great warriors. I'd love to see evidence about Sosan Daesa though. Is there somewhere we can confirm that data? Remember also that the Japanese army was in Korea from the 1890s to 1945. Several generations learned the Japanese ways, and so much of traditional Korean culture was Wiped out. Joint locks in Korea, from what I've seen, were much more heavily based on judo and jujutsu than from any Korean and Chinese style. Hwarangdo and Kuksulweon incorporated more Chinese movements because of the flow of Chinese refugees following the 1949 revolution in China, at least from what I've seen. If you have evidence to the contrary, I know we'd all love to see it. Michael Choi wrote: >As a Korean, I would like to train in techniques and strategies that > authentic to my culture and in line with good moral beliefs and ideas of Korea. As an > American, I'm open to techniques and strategies that will help to be a better martial artist > and to understand martial arts better. My response: Well said! And may I say that I feel _exactly_ the same way. Since I'm an American, I now practice American Combative Science (ACS) rather than the Korean arts. It allows me to train in techniques and strategies that are in tune with my culture and in line with the moral beliefs and ideals of the United States. Likewise as an American, I'm open to the most efficient and successful techniques and strategies. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick Instructor, A.C.S. burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 13:47:03 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #624 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. 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