From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #626 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Fri, 9 Nov 2001 Vol 08 : Num 626 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Cane/Joint locks introduction to Korean Martial Arts the_dojang: Re: Joint locks?Marine Corps Martial Arts instructor course the_dojang: Re: the_dojang: KSW the_dojang: the_dojang: KSW vs. other Stuff ! the_dojang: TSD Korean/Japanese? the_dojang: Re: Saying farewell to ???(fill in your favorite art/org.) the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #625 Re: the_dojang: Re: Cane/Joint locks introduction to Korean Martial the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 23:26:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Cane/Joint locks introduction to Korean Martial Arts Frank goes on to say: Now, I would also bear in mind that the theories saying that all Korean Martial Art began in Japan, are also erroneos. The Koreans had had interaction with the Chinese before the Japanese had come into play. Heck, Monk Sosan Daesa is credited with introducing joint locks to both the Koreans AND the Japapnese, and is reputed to have used a cane to whip up on a bunch of samurai. He is also credited with being the one to truly introdcue the cane to Korean Martial Arts. I thought GM JI, Han JAe was the one who introduced the Cane and joint locks with a cane to Korean Martial Arts. Jack ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 23:34:02 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Joint locks?Marine Corps Martial Arts instructor course I recently finished giving Hapkido classes for a Marine Corps Martial Arts Instructors Course. A pretty tough bunch of guys, and a tough course they put together. It's an interesting system. Not much intellectualizing, but a few broken bones and a few cases of heat stress. Anybody else have experience with the Marines and their new Martial Art? V/R, Rick Nabors Rick What course was this? Where was it being taught? Was it the follow on program to the "Marine Line training" (Linear- Neural overide engagement system) that permeated the corps several years ago? Is the course a systemized course throughout the Marines? JAck Ouellette (SEMPER FI!) ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 23:37:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Then Mr. Burdick, since you do not agree, could you explain arts such as Shimkido, Bulmudo and Soorim? These arts are VERY chinese and in fact, were transplants to Korea. What are these Arts? When were they transplanted. I asked several Korean Martial Artists about these and No-One seemed to know what they were. JAck ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 04:23:17 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: KSW Spunky writes: > I believe that KSW is a good art, but it is not all > there is to MA or self-defense. KSW association's rules against > studying other arts, its belief on testing often and promoting despite > the demonstrated lack of skill You are right Spunky. Kuk Sool IS a good art; however, the current emphasis on creating more Black Belts (and then sending them out to open schools) will surely lead to exactly what happened to you and the fellow students you spoke of. It is unfortunate, and it will no doubt have a detrimental effect on Kuk Sool in the future. On the other hand, there ARE some KSW Instructors out there that still teach good stuff, and ignore the pressure to become a factory of Black Belts without sufficient skill. However, as the current leadership pushes its policies on school owners, they are becoming harder to find. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 04:30:50 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Alejo writes: > it is interesting to see the differences that exist between the ksw i > learned as a child in Venezuela. And what u are saying is ksw in the U.S. > b/c the martial art i learned as a kid is exactly the one u are looking for > by leaving KSW. Venezuela has one of the last strongholds of good Kuk Sool I have had the pleasure of seeing. Master Lee Ung Koo was not only a apparent good teacher, he is a gentleman. I truly enjoyed having "Team Venezuela" at my Can-Am classic tournament. They were good practitioners and humble people. Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 04:19:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: KSW vs. other Stuff ! A list member posted this comment, in part: << Response: Studied KSW in California and Korea (re: Pusan). I won't bad mouth the art. But I will compare it to this: Last night I met with an Eskrima/Silat Master in his gym. We went over this in one hour: - - 4 strike stick drills - - 5 retract stick drills - - 6 count retract strick drills - - Employing empty hands using same drills - - Using footwork to combine the 6 strike drills, high and low - - Using footwork and above hand/stick drills to simultaneously defend and attack via slashing, gouging, and gunting approaches. - - Using disarms to defend and remove weapon from opponent - - 12 basic strikes - - Using heavy bag and strikes I have been doing this once a week for four weeks. In this amount of time I have learned significantly more on basic street defense than six to eight months in a traditional KSW or other Dojang wherein you do forms, weapon forms, a coupla kicks (which are easily defended against with the above crashing and smashing techniques)and maybe a smattering of a few joint locks. Now I hope to continue this method of training. Thereafter, I hope to find a good Hapkido school wherein you do not do forms but focus on practical joint lock techniques. As I previously said each person must find their own path. What is my ceiling may indeed be your floor. I will tell you this: I felt my hard earned money was well spent with an instructor over an hour period than I have felt leaving a Dojang where I did not learn as much. Moreover, I am not worried about promotions or rank per se, but learning the art and being and adept martial artist. Ken McD... __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Moja Kwan Tang Soo Do" Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:17:12 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: TSD Korean/Japanese? Actually, Funakoshi used the Karate-Do name, but written "Empty Hand" rather than "China Hand" from about the time he moved to Japan from Okinawa. Tang Soo Do so far as I can determin has always been written "T'ang" or "Chinese" Hand Way. Are the forms So Rim Jang Kwan and Tae Kuek Kwan found in any of the Japanese or Okinawan arts? Frank, do you know the origin of these forms? - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - --------------------------- Good post Master Dunn For those who have a copy of Kyohan by Funakoshi Sensei (ISBN 0-87011-190-6) The two Kanji (Hanja) for Kara are discussed in the introduction. I and many other TSD/SBD schools teach the 19 hyung attributed to Funakoshi Sensei (Well, technically I still need to learn Jion). Further the version(s) of Roi Hai that I do does not seem to have a direct Jap/Oki equivalent...We also add Oh Sip Sa Bo (Goju Shiho) for sixth dan (another for me to learn) which is Jap/Oki based. So Rim Jang Kwon would translate to Shaolin Long Fist....looking forward to someone who can explain how that is not of Chinese influence :0) Of course they would be one of the handfull of people alive that actually know that form, so I could learn it from them :0) From all my research Tae Kuek Kwan is basically KJN Hwang Kee's version/translation of a long form of Taijiquan/Taijichuan. I've never confirmed which family style. Most practitioners would agree you'd get more MA value from learning a long form from a qualified TJQ master... I'll let you know if I ever get to 7th Dan and need some new testing material :0) Now for history one must remember Moo Duk Kwan Hwa Soo Do's founder studied in China....and Chung Do Kwan Tang Soo Do's founder studied with the Funakoshi Family Anyway you slice it TSD is an ecclectic art :0) I tell my prospects this is Korean Karate so they can get a feel of what they will be learning. Our student manual explains the hanja of China Hand Way. Hope that helps others Long winded as ever, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:25:33 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Saying farewell to ???(fill in your favorite art/org.) To Spunky, I completely understand where you are coming from. I have left the ATA for the very same reasons. They teach what seems to be a very valid form of TKD (seems to have all the proper ingredients - Power, Balance, Adaptability, Technique, Speed) but lacks some of the more "esoteric" qualities of Martial Arts. I say "esoteric" because that is how the tenants of Respect, Honor, Discipline, Spiritual Development, and other like ideas was described to me by my former instructor. They also avoid contact like the plague, and because of "safety" rules seldom if ever use even their padded weapons in a "live sparring" environment" leaving many students with no idea how to handle the weapon when there is actually someone in front of them. My former instructor like many in the ATA has succomb to the McDojang mentality. They usually will not admit to it, and often can hide behind rules and regulations of the organization. This however is a giant lie - they will in the same breath tell you that they can bend or even ignore rules and regulations in an effort to further their school and that those acts are sanctioned by the ATA! ANd this is actually the truth in many cases, as long as the student is happy (ie being promoted evey month or so as a "color belt" - and doesn't face the disappointment of "failing a test") and the dues are being brought in everyone looks the other way. I have seen far too many young and promising students completely screwed up by the ATA system. In the past the system really worked, and the Masters and other upper ranks they have show the quality of training they received. But today, that level of training and understanding just isn't there. Tomorrow's Masters are in serious jeapordy. I am also on a quest to find a new home for Martial Arts pursuits. I am one of the ever dwindling few that are young, capable, and still interested in the "esoteric". I have told many an instructor - "I don't care what belt I wear, just teach me and let me learn all that is out there to be known!" Most instructors/school owners I have spoken with actually have a negative reaction to this approach. Those that are part of a large, national or inter-national organization, for the most part have told me that I just wouldn't "fit in" at their school and that I should keep looking elsewhere. My advise to you, Spunky, and others like ourselves - look for a small school, one that does not owe allegence to a larger organization. Use your experience and knowledge in choosing by watching a few of their classes and assessing the instructors and the students. You will eventually find a school that is filled with people that think like we do, it might just take a while. Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 08:55:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #625 Frank Clay writes: > Then Mr. Burdick, since you do not agree, could you explain arts such as > Shimkido, Bulmudo and Soorim? These arts are VERY chinese and in fact, were > transplants to Korea. Unless of course, Monk Lee, Sauk Kyu doesn't know what > he is talking about. My reply: Sure. What are they? Shimkido sounds familiar, but I haven't heard of Bulmudo. Soorim (Seorim?) sounds like Shaolin, right? All of these probably popped up in the last 20 years, unless I miss my guess. Do you have any evidence to the contrary? My source for this is an Inside Kung-fu article from the 1980s that talked about Chinese martial arts in Korea and how they got there. From what I've seen, Praying Mantis and Baguazhang were the two most popular Chinese martial arts in Korea after 1950. Before that time, the Chinese arts present in Korea were the traditional 18 weapons of Shaolin and perhaps taijiquan. One should realize that these were taught within the Chinese communities and rarely to members of other ethnicities (ie. Koreans and Japanese), which of course all disliked each other and kept their distance as a result. This barrier seems to have been reduced in the late 1950s and early 1960s. A lot more Chinese arts popped up in Korea during the 1970s and the Bruce Lee craze and of course there is the Asian penchant for making up new arts and accrediting them with great antiquity. That is not to say that Monk Lee Sauk-Kyu doesn't know what he's talking about, but since I don't know anything about him one way or another, I couldn't say. Could you point us to information about him? I hope you will take this in the spirit in which it was intended, as an honest inquiry rather than as a personal attack. Too often people in the arts assume that questioning authority is the same as blasphemy and start putting the suspected witch to the flames (or vice versa, sending the flames to the suspect!). I hope that will not happen in this case, but if it does, please remember what Bernard Shaw once wrote: "All great truths begin as blasphemies." Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 7:09:10 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Cane/Joint locks introduction to Korean Martial > I thought GM JI, Han JAe was the one who introduced the Cane and joint > locks with a cane to Korean Martial Arts. He introduced cane into Hapkido. Not sure about KMAs. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 7:14:36 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #626 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!