To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #662 Sender: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 3 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 662 In this issue: the_dojang: run , do not walk.... the_dojang: Re: Scott Shaw the_dojang: (no subject) the_dojang: Re:Shaolin Monks the_dojang: Re: Lee, Sauk Kyu the_dojang: RE: Wu Shu the_dojang: RE: Black Belts the_dojang: RE: Shaw stuff ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~1000 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: jerseyj Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 19:40:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: run , do not walk.... On Sun, 2 Dec 2001 "Dizzy S." wrote: > From: "Dizzy S." > Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 17:24:31 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Black Belts > [stuff cut] > days when I raised my voice at higher ranks for acting outta "character". We > have a problem with "egos" in my dojang. Most of the instructors are younger > than me (I'm 26 and most of them are under 21). They "show off" or make us > lower ranks feel "stupid". BB or not, I don't take that. I pay to learn, not > to get put down. When I'm asked to assist in teaching, I treat EVERY rank > with respect, even white belts. If they make a mistake, I don't yell at > them. I encourage them to keep trying, and offer my assistance if they want > it. I work with them, break down the technique for them, and try to give > them confidance that they CAN do it. > > Most of the adults will leave the dojang now if one of the younger > instructors have to teach the adult class (if our master can't teach). For > one, the adults should be respected cause of age alone, and the younger > instructors don't respect us. They don't give a f**k. They'll do their thing > by showing off, fight among each other ..... yelling at each other, I mean, > while the whole class is sitting there watching and not learning nothing. HOLY COW! Sorry, I don't comment often, but if I were in a dojang like that , I'd run, not walk out the door! I just can't imagine training in a place like that. I'm one of those older guys (48) and one of the things I really admired was the respect I got in my older dojang. For that school, it was part and parcel of the overall philosophy! My gosh, what you describe is really scary! And where's the head instructor ??? After all, he's the one responsible and just hring an older instructor doesn't cut it.... Jerry [wondering if there's more to the story, and restarted training after a 5 year break due to asthma and other physical stuff!] +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ------------------------------ From: jsegovia@mindspring.com Date: Sun, 02 Dec 2001 19:41:47 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Scott Shaw Mike, in 6 or 7 minutes of that Scott Shaw video you saw, did he do any techniques? What can you say about his Hapkido? Jesse ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:05:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: (no subject) In a message dated 12/2/2001 7:19:11 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << Unless you are a Shaolin monk, or have been through the the training, who are you to judge? >> I agree. Though I am pretty exclusively a Korean stylist, I have watched and trained with some Chinese stylist that have blown my mind, and I am very reticent to stand in judgment of any martial art. I don't think Ive ever encountered a martial art that I could not find something in it to respect and something that offered advantages that the art I happened to be practicing did not have. Last night I saw a program on our Public Broadcasting System TV channel entitled, "Shaolin, The Wheel of Life." These guys, purportedly Shaolin Monks, blew my mind, My brother in law, who is Chinese American and a taekwondo fifth dan turned off his TV after a few minutes because he thought it was to commercial and flashy and theatrical. It was theatrical, it was a combination of dance and martial display to tell the story or legend of an emperor who was saved by some Shaolin monks, but they refused to become his personal guard, which sent the emperor into a rage and he had them all killed. Who knows if it was true, but the show was beautiful and the skill, agility, power, speed, etc., of these martial artists was awesome. Yes, there was a lot of gymnastics tumbling and acrobatics involved but I thought it was stunning nonetheless. And talk about falls, these guys were leaping over head level and landing in front falls and back falls and flip falls on a hardwood stage floor! Yes, much of it was theater but what's wrong with that? It was beautifully choreographed, the costumes and set design were beautiful, and the music made it more exhilarating. These things did not make the performer "monks" any less of martial artists in my view. I've been going to martial arts demonstrations and tournaments for nearly twenty-five years, and I don't think I've ever seen skill displayed at this level, even if I include some of the great Korean Grandmasters I have witnessed. Watch these guys do there forms and tell me the last time you saw a Korean stylist do a form with that much power and speed and agility and grace. I really don't care what one calls it, these guys looked like fantastic martial artists to me. Unless you can do even 25% of what these guys could do (no, lets say 10%), I would be very careful about standing in judgment. I love Korean martial arts but I don't think you could find more than a handful of Korean stylist in this country who could do what these guys could do. Jose' ------------------------------ From: JSaportajr@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 20:52:43 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re:Shaolin Monks Sorry, forgot the subject line in my preceding post. Here it is. Jose ------------------------------ From: KodanjaClay@aol.com Date: Sun, 2 Dec 2001 21:30:33 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Lee, Sauk Kyu Ray, Grandmaster and Sunim (monk) Lee is a very well respected master in Korea. He was at one time president of ROKYA and today, from what I understand, has the only system which meets both ROKYA and KHF standards. He left his wife for five years to study with, and become, a Buddhist Monk, and we tend to call him a warrior monk to differentiate him from Buddhist monks who do not practice martial art. Sunim Lee also gives private lessons in Sundo and Chimukwan, once again from what I understand, to some of the higher ranking members of Kukkiwon. I can say this. One of my seniors under Sunim Lee, gave me back use of my back after I injured it this year and then saw a quack chiropractor who hurt me so bad that for two weeks, I could not stand long enough to supervise a 1 hour class. Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 07:28:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Wu Shu Frank wrote, "According to many Chinese practitioners of martial art, Wushu is the correct term as it means "Martial Arts". Kung Fu means attainment after great effort, so flower arranging can be "kung fu"." I don't think so. I've never known a self-respecting Wing Chun, Choy Lay Fut, or Hung Gar practicioner that would use the term "Wu Shu" to refer to their art. Wu Shu (as the term is most commonly used today) is a distinct sub-set within the greater set of Chinese Martial Arts. Has more to do with gymnastics and flailing around with faux weapons than actual fighting. The term "Chaun Fa" would be a more appropriate term for the aforementioned styles. "Unless you are a Shaolin monk, or have been through the the training, who are you to judge? Not trying to cause a "flame war" if you will, but to me this seems to be common sense." I'm not judging...I am offering my opinion. If standing on one's head, and sucking rice bowls to one's stomach constitutes martial arts...then I'm going to start calling what I do something else so that I won't be guilty by association. "However, I will pass along to Warrior Monk Lee, Sauk Kyu that he can not possibly be a real monk because his religion abhors violence." Obviously, you are reading too much into my post. I said nothing about this cat, or anyone else in particular. I was referring to these Wu Shu characters running around in orange linen trying to pass themselves off as "Shaolin Monks". If your friend isn't part of this crowd then don't get all riled up. You'd be better served taking your indignation to THEIR doorstep. BTW, do you think a "real" monk would give two shakes about other's opinion of them, or what they do? I suspect not. Craig Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 06:07:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Black Belts Hi, Responding to MC's question pertaining to arrogant black belts, I too have see this in different dojangs and different associations. And yes even in my own school which I might add I quickly put a stop too. If a black belt or any other student wants the respect that they think they deserve then they should first be humble enough to give respect to others regardless of rank or even gender in that matter. I would say best of luck for your forthcoming grading, but luck is for the unprepared. I'm sure you will do you best. Regards, Ken Head Instructor Shinson Tang Soo Do Tang Soo ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 08:29:43 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Shaw stuff Dear Michael: "...I was browsing and they tell me they just got this new Hapkido video in from a guy named Scott Shaw,, ..." Your experience seems to reflect what I have seen of Mr. Shaw. Apparently there is much more image-consciousness than a legitimate effort to inform where he is concerned. I had an opportunity to watch one of Mr. Shaws' tapes while attending the Summer Seminar in Jackson, and found it necessary to turn it off as it was simply too painful to watch. My personal objection is that there is simply very little information about what it is that he is trying to accomplish and what his actual fram of reference is for the sort of position he presents. I know he is often identified as "Dr." Scott Shaw, but there is nothing to indicate where is doctorate is from, or what his area of expertise is. Regarding his Hapkido I have not been able to identify what tradition (if any) that he follows, from whom he learned his technique and what THAT persons' tradition might be. Finally, I also object to the free and easy manner in which he reports Korean tradition, especially when he doesnot cite any references to back up the statements that he makes. In past posts I have used the term "martial theatre" to refer to people for whom practice is a matter of dressing-up, posturing and grimacing on the mat and striving to perpetuate a particular image of martial arts. My sense is were these people to have a patron saint Mr. Shaw would been at the top of the candidate list with Mr. Garrison of Washington State a close second. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #662 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!