From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #665 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 4 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 665 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts the_dojang: Re: Stirring the Pot the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts the_dojang: Re: Clarification the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #664 the_dojang: RE:Shaw stuff the_dojang: RE: WU SHU stuff the_dojang: Oy vey...you can say that again. the_dojang: RE: Warrior, then and now the_dojang: Shaw's Technique? the_dojang: I did it! the_dojang: Stretching Question/Rant (long) the_dojang: Know-nothing BBs the_dojang: Re: 5th gup exam the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Forman" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 17:18:03 +1100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts G'day, Just offering a different perspective on this thread. The first class I attended after attaining my BB, I was pulled aside by the instructor and basically told not to associate with the colour belts anymore. That now I was a black belt and that I need to act like one. I need to stand apart from the colour belts. It was even worse when I started instructing children's classes, then I wasn't even allowed to talk to BB's, even if they outranked me by several years!!! During the next 2 years I was with that school I was reprimanded several times for talking to colour belts. There where several of the BB's who really took this to the extreme, and would 'order' the colour belts around just because they could, and they thought it was expected of them. The problem was that they where not instructors, some of them only around 19-20, and they would be ordering colour belts who would be at least twice their age, showing no respect for them at all. Some of these colour belt 'scum' just happen to be doctors, lawyers etc.. in 'real life'. Leaves a bad taste. In the last 12 months all of the highest ranking instructors, around 90% of the BB's and 70% of the colour belts left that school and particularly that Chief Instructor and formed our own non-profit association. Now the colour belts are free to approach a BB, and yet for some magical reason they still seems to show respect even though it is never 'demanded' of them ;-) It is a much better atmosphere, and yet we still have strict discipline (which is essential IMHO) and even higher standards for technique. So now as black belts, if we want to stand apart from the colour belts we have to do so with superior technique and knowledge. We have not had any problems with any students or BB's trying to prove a point or being disrespectful, but if we do then I am sure it would be sorted fairly quickly when sparring time comes around. Cheers, Michael Forman > From: "Arthur Lee" > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:19:35 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts > > Hey all, > > Back when I first became a 1st dan black belt, my GM nipped any thoughts of > superiority from our "invincible" minds by telling us that we were but > little chicks just hatching from our eggs... we knew enough to break out of > the shell, but in truth, we knew nothing, so the "real" training was to > begin... > > I don't necessarily condone telling that to any students that i would have > if i was teaching, but, it really cut down on the number of puffed-chest, > arrogant black belts in my dojang... > > ah... to be told by your master that you know nothing when you reach BB... > > Arthur > 2nd Dan TKD > 1st Dan HDG ------------------------------ From: Ken McDonough Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 04:39:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Stirring the Pot Greetings Mike T; u partially noted (on the Scott Shaw thread): Well, I have never stated that my Hapkido skills are any where near the level of some of the great Masters on this list. Like Rocky sez in Rocky I, "I am just a ham and egger...he is the Champ !" But, I love the stuff on Scott Shaw and those movie titles are really something. Reminds me of the Ed Wood stuff, re: "Glen or Glenda", "The Streets of Laredo", "Lawless Rider", "Jailbait", "Bride of the Monster", and of course "Plan 9 From Out of Space." All classics in their own genre ! Now, I want the Pelligrini debates to begin. P.S. I will shortly forward an interesting web site for those of you into weightlifting. Good information to supplement your training. McD... P.S. 2. I also like Pink Flamingoes by that director from Baltimore. It starred Ms. Divine, the 300 lb. Transvestite. Do any of you remember the "chicken in the trailer" scene or the scene in the supermarket meat department? __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:06:57 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts While I don't condone direct arrogant behavior, I believe that one's perspective can change at the first dan level. At this level, several things can be happening: 1) Some folks naturally relax a little as they have now achieved a big goal that they set a long time ago. 2) The time between testings becomes much greater at this level. With this in mind, the drive for the next testing is somewhat reduced. 3) They become humbled through the realization of how little they really know. Couple these ideas together, and it can appear to others that now that this person has "made it" they don't care any more, they don't try as hard, they've lost the drive, the motivation, the intensity, etc........A gup rank may misunderstand this and write it off as the "black-belt attitude". This is not to be confused with the direct, arrogant, in-your-face, I think I'm better than you, because I said say, I've got a black belt and you don't attitude - that we've all witnessed. I believe that stems from other insecurities and they use this to hide behind. No, what I am referring to is what appears to be a behavioral change due to a change in perspective of the newly minted Cho-Dan. Perhaps this person is becoming more comfortable with who they are, and are beginning to explore their art in new ways. Either way, yes I believe people can change when they get their black belt. It's their choice in how they change, and your choice on how you react to them. You can learn from both types of people on how you want to act, and how not to act. If you treat people with respect, that respect will return to you, regardless of rank. If you command respect, but do nothing to earn it, you'll find yourself alone in a world that you created for yourself. Some people get it, some people refuse to! In the spirit......... Mark Lasich Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com ------------------------------ From: KodanjaClay@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:55:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Clarification Mr Lee, Don't forget Naoshu (sp) or national technique. I am always fascinated by the number of people who have never really studied an art but wish to talk about the "classics" of the art. I myself have trained both in Bei Shaolin, which I might add is very challenging for me as an individual, and Wu-Hao Taijiquan. Jack, I believe you did not read my last post. I believe I stated that we call him (Sunim Lee) that to distinguish between Buddhist monks who do martial art and those who do not. Incidentally, congrats on becoming a KHF dan holder. Second dan I think? How is Master Whalen? On the "Warrior" topic. I was using the term loosely as I thought it sounded better than fighting monk. (lol-talk about an oxymoron.) I do not think that anyone who has notserved in some military unit somewhere can be called a warrior. A Warrior is a man of war. Not some new age concept of the "wounded hero having a personal crises that leads to ultimate enlightenment". I hope I have tried to speak more clearly this time. Sincerely, Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: KodanjaClay@aol.com Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:56:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #664 I would like to post an apology. Seems my non typing fingers got me yet again. I meant Mr. Wee, not Mr. Lee. My sincerest apologies. Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:11:02 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE:Shaw stuff Dear Michael: "...he basically did all the techniques I saw on the tape (and book by the way) standing straight up with his knees locked,, and all the joint lock actions were done from the shoulder out to the wrist,, there were no body movements at all involved in any of his movements,,..." Thanks for identifying some of the more salient short-comings. Sometimes when I am working with beginners half my time is getting them to understand that the final result (dropping somebody on their ass, say) is not the be-all and end-all of the art. I think that in viewing the tape, my pain came not just from his very goal-oriented approach, but also that what he did was done so poorly. Having represented himself to be an accomplished practitioner to an unknowing public I can only imagine what his consumers must come to think of the Hapkido arts. I mentioned before that Mr. Garrison up in Washington is another person who merits watching. A former Aikido person, Mr. Garrison was able to connect with a Korean ex-pat who apparently lends credence to whatever it is that Mr. Garrison teaches. Maybe its good stuff, and maybe it isn't, but my sense is that the only authentification he has for his material is because he has a Korean national in-residence. Theres' that racial issue, again. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:29:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: WU SHU stuff Dear Mr. Wee: "...."wushu" or "wugong" ARE the right words to be used as generic name for all Chinese Martial Arts and can be found even in ancient texts. It includes all the Arts you mentioned above. However, the Wu-Shu as promoted by the Chinese government, is more for sport. Though you will still need strong basics in Chinese Martial Arts. ...." Thanks for your post. Please know that my particular issue is not a matter of skill or competence regarding the Chinese arts when the term WU SHU comes into play. I think a blind man can see that it takes considerable skill to perform in the manner that these people do. Nor will I pretend that the term WU SHU can't be used to identify the current curriculum of training as related to Chinese MT. My problem is that I think that many people who do not investigate the Chinese MT to any depth begin to think that the more modern incarnations of the Chinese MA are identical to the more ancient and venerated arts of the past. For this reason I think it is worthwhile to restrict the use of the term WU SHU to identify those more current arts which are essentially amalgamations of many older indivdual arts. Reading Dr. Yangs books as well as S David Chows and S Adam Hsu's it is repeatedly reported that at least five Chuan Fa styles were collected under one discipline under the PRC. In turn this "composite" style was relocated to the south of China and once again re-combined with yet a number of Southern Chinese arts. In this manner, what is presently practiced as "Long Fist" (Chang Quan) for instance, bears only a very dim resemblance to anything like the original Northern Long Fist of history. For someone like myself to digs into the back-waters of martial history this can be no-end of frustrating as it is very common to have someone identify themselves as "Northern Praying Mantis" only to find that the art is actually the WU SHU interpretation of something nearly unrelated to the original. BTW: If the term WUSHU is to be used as I have defined above, does anyone have a favorite term for identifying pre-PRC-efforts Chinese MT. CHUAN FA would seem to cover Boxing Traditions, and terms like WUDANG and SHAOLIN seem to identify a particular biomechanic. Is there a term comparable to BUDO (J.) or MUDO (K.) that would encompass not only emptyhand and weapons disciplines but attitudes and ethics as well? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 08:35:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Oy vey...you can say that again. If this post doesn't clarify my position...I don't know what will. <> Once AGAIN...I wasn't referring to punching, kicking, limb twisting, grappling, or any other legitimate display of martial arts skill. I thought I made it QUITE clear that I love demonstrations of true martial skills. My critique was toward the cornball stunts that are popular among some MA's. Once AGAIN...catching arrows, terrifying fruits and vegetables, walking on eggs, lying on beds of nails, etc. And yes, with a little imagination and a willingness to shift the scope of the discussion...you can extrapolate my comments into pretty much anything. Once again, you bring up the subject of "mystique", and claim that this is a good thing for the martial arts. My challenge to you would be this...stop trying to tear apart a position that I never stated, and give some logical reasons why "mystique" is good for the arts. That line of discussion may prove more beneficial than the current. Craig Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 09:04:34 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Warrior, then and now Dear Ray: "..... Am I a warrior simply because I practice martial arts? Or does being a warrior imply something very different?..." You are a warrior any time you seek to resolve conflict and promote Harmony (Wa) by coming out of the best part of yourself. Following a MT is just one path for getting this done. I think, sometimes that we often get tunnel vision about this because in the heritage of KMT there has always been a very physical and romantic view of how this is done which includes swords, strikes, kicks and dominating ones' opponents. Statistically one can prove that the likelihood of actually having to express oneself physically with our martial skills (absent a career choice that might increase this probability) is rather small. What this means is that for most of us using our training and conditioning to become better negotiators, support systems, advocates and catalysts for change is closer to the warrior role. Even in the Western tradition there are the modern Knights Templar and evangelical churches which identify their members as "soldiers of Christ". However, nobody actually expects these folks to use weapons or force to press whatever position they might have. "...Is training for self-defense the same as training for combat?...." In a way, yes, because I find that the greatest challenge I have is teaching my students that they are worthy of protecting themselves. I can probably teach anybody how to dislocate a shoulder or break a wrist in about 15 minutes. However, coaching a person to use the same sense of self-preservation to approach a boss for a raise or a day off, or to challenge a supervisor about unethical conduct takes much longer. Yet, which skill is more likely to be called on? In either case, the student must be willing to use the skill to take care of themselves, and in both cases there is some level of risk entailed. In this way they might be the same. But my sense is that there are a lot more students who would rather train to break the wrist over and over than have to deal with a situation in which they find themselves at odds with their "paycheck provider." BTW, Ray. You are being considered for membership in the Brucie-ryu style of Martial Inquiry. For five modest payments you get not only a certificate, patch, newsletter and seminar schedule but registered BB in the secret art of asking annoying questions. In addition your $3600 will include for today only a copy of the US. 10 MOST ANNOYING MA QUESTIONS OF ALL TIME [please specify Regular Edition, Florida Edition (Small Words), Carolina Edition (Pictures Only), California Edition (Langerie Catalog Incl) ]. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:06:18 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Shaw's Technique? Michael Tomlinson Wrote: <<<<>>> OMG!!! That was so funny. I don't know the dude (Scott) from Adam, but this email gave me a good laugh. Good one, Michael :o) Sorry guys for the double email from me in the last digest. I musta had a happy send finger lol. Dizzy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: "Dizzy S." Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:11:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: I did it! Hiya all. I finally found a new school in NY WOOOHOOO. Yes, Ray, it's TKD :o) I wanna thank everyone who tried to help me (including Ray) with my quest :o) The only problem is, I is a white belt again .... eeekkkk. Scary. Just kidding. I'll enjoy whoopin on the other white belts hehehehehe (joke). Thanks again. Dizzy _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Ellen P Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Stretching Question/Rant (long) Hello everyone, I'm an occasional poster (more of a lurker) who was hoping to gain some insight about martial arts stretching from some of you.....and actually, I just needed a place to vent - the answer to my questions/concerns are in here somewhere :) I've been having issues with how we stretch in class at the TKD studio I attend. Why do instructors push so hard for all that painful stretching? Does it really matter if I can do the splits?? I've been learning TKD for about a year and I feel as if my instructor is becoming more harsh and becoming impatient with my flexibility (even though it appears that I'm more flexible than most of the students). Last night he kicked me when I got scared (of injuring myself) while he was pushing me down into a stretch because I put my hands on the ground (we were were stretching with our legs open trying to put our head to the ground - touching the ground only stops you from really stretching). He thinks I was being lazy about the pain - but really my main concern is injuring myself. I do realize that you have to stretch harder than I have been to really injure myself - I just need more time to get over that 'mental' hump when it comes to flexibility. Its not the pain but rather the insecurity of my (and his) knowledge about stretching like this. I'm beginning to wonder if its more of a trust issue with my instructor. I practice different forms of Yoga outside of class and the mentality is completely different - accepting your limitations, working within your limitations, and working toward your goal (whether that is the splits or whatever) at your own pace. I've never gotten "scared" with any yoga postures (and you know there are some pretty wild ones that make most people cringe). So I guess this is conflicting with what goes on in TKD class which is maybe why I'm having such a negative attitude towards stretching in class. Am I just being a *baby* about harsh stretching? I wonder how much a 19yrold instructor can possibly know about a 29yrold female body and how it stretches. And does he care if I injure myself with this "tough" stretching. Am I just wimping out here? Does how much pain we are willing to accept reflect how dedicated we are to the martial arts? Pain is not an issue for me when I know there is a benefit. I can't always see the benefit here except to show how much we are willing to take and to "prove" our dedication (coming to class everyday and participating as hard as I can isn't enough)? Is there another way to look at it (maybe my view is too narrow and shortsighted)? Am I a lesser student because I would like to stretch in a different way on my own terms? Maybe I'm starting to burn out and the time invested, pain, injuries, and physical ailments from TKD are starting to get to me....and I'm just having one of those days. ep __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 11:15:15 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Know-nothing BBs Ah indeed... Our Gm Kim has been heard to say that Dan-Bo ( temporary BB ) is "baby black belt", 1st Dan is youngster, and 2nd Dan is "teenager" black belt. A healthy ego-deflater... Kerry WTF TKD > From: "Arthur Lee" > Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 17:19:35 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts > > Hey all, > > Back when I first became a 1st dan black belt, my GM nipped any thoughts > of > superiority from our "invincible" minds by telling us that we were but > little chicks just hatching from our eggs... we knew enough to break out > of > the shell, but in truth, we knew nothing, so the "real" training was to > begin... > > I don't necessarily condone telling that to any students that i would have > if i was teaching, but, it really cut down on the number of puffed-chest, > arrogant black belts in my dojang... > > ah... to be told by your master that you know nothing when you reach BB... > > Arthur > 2nd Dan TKD > 1st Dan HDG ------------------------------ From: Dominic Mitchell Date: 04 Dec 2001 12:30:31 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: 5th gup exam Hi Dizzy, Thanks for your support. My feeling did not come from the fact that I was not ready, I was more than ready. In fact, receiving the belt was just like acknowledging that my ability were at that level. This was known by everyone. My peers were the one asking me when I was going to test ... A usual time frame for the 5th gup test is roughly 60 dojang periods of training which would have brought me around June. I kept training with the same intensity during the summer. I also train hard at home. Some students do not train during the summer periods, nor at home and I think it starts to show --- I never get to see myself :) Thus when I tested I had more cumulative hours of training in the dojang and outside by a good margin. It should have been obvious. I am not a natural, but then again not many of us are. I real recognition of encouragement to keep on the good work was not to receive the belt, but if was to be awarded my belt in the "very good" category, leaving the "excellent" category for the natural, then those that are below my skill level should have been awarded their belts with a "good" mention. Rethinking about how we were paired up for the fights, I think that our Sabounim implicitly recognized our relative skills. I was matched with a 10 years younger fellow with very good skills. I did one of my best fight, if not my best. My usual master, the one who trains me most of the time was not there during the testing. I his very busy these days following a program to enhance his trainer skills --- I can't complain about this he his very devoted to us. I must admit though that this was a very large testing schedule. We were around 60 under test. The board for the testing was composed of 7 BB. Our head master, our sabounim, and 2 3rd degree BB and 3 2nd degree BB. The seniors, we were last to test. I can understand that around that time your are more tired of judging the students. For each group the test were going fast. Anyway, there maybe other consideration when awarding the belts in the senior category than just skills. They also know that I am devoted to what I do. My master came to me at the end of last class telling me that he had received good comment about my testing. Oh well. I guess all this does not matter. I should just take the positive side of it :) Cheers. "Dizzy S." writes: > Dominic Mitchell, > > That is very normal to feel that way. I felt the same way with my 5th gup > test. I refused to test (when I was supposed to). I felt I wasn't ready. My > instructor told me that he felt I was, but he totally understood if I > decided not to test, and I didn't. I felt I wasn't doing my form right, or > doing certian techs right. So I gave myself two more weeks, and it worked. I > trained hard, and I felt more "able" to take the test. > > Sometimes people feel that they don't do well, but from a judges point of > view, you do well. It's totally normal to feel you don't do well, but in the > eyes of a fellow student, teacher, or judge, you are doing fine :o) I'm sure > you deserved the promotion :o) Keep training hard, and be the best you can be. > > Dizzy > _________________________________________________________________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp - -- Dominic Mitchell ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 10:18:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #665 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!