From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #666 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 5 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 666 In this issue: the_dojang: attack of the fruit the_dojang: RE: Stretching and your limits Re: the_dojang: Stretching Question/Rant (long) the_dojang: Re: Stretching Question/Rant (long) the_dojang: Assorted junque the_dojang: RE: Promotions!! Alright!! the_dojang: Ellen's Stretching the_dojang: RE: Stretched to the Limit the_dojang: $$ the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts the_dojang: Re: "Black Belt Mania" the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #665 the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:01:07 PST Subject: the_dojang: attack of the fruit > Once AGAIN...catching arrows, terrifying fruits and vegetables, walking on > eggs, lying on beds of nails, etc. Reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of Monthy Python. Attack me with this banana... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 12:27:47 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Stretching and your limits > From: Ellen P > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:42:11 -0800 (PST) > Subject: the_dojang: Stretching Question/Rant (long) > > I've been having issues with how we stretch in class > at the TKD studio I attend. Why do instructors push > so hard for all that painful stretching? Does it > really matter if I can do the splits?? > No, Ellen I don't believe it does. What really matters is that you achieve as much as you can. ( usually more than you thought possible ) Besides, not everyone is physically capable of doing splits. > Last night he kicked me when I got scared (of injuring > myself) while he was pushing me down into a stretch > because I put my hands on the ground (we were were > stretching with our legs open trying to put our head > to the ground - touching the ground only stops you > from really stretching). He thinks I was being lazy > about the pain - but really my main concern is > injuring myself. > Oof!! Why put up with that? Though you didn't say whether the kick was hard or a little "reminder tap", that sounds abusive to me. If an instructor truly thinks you're dogging it there are plenty of better ways to lead you into working harder. > Am I just wimping out here? > Only you can answer that, as you are the best one to know your physical limitations. Speaking as a 47-year-old male ( aka old geezer ), knowing your limitations is essential to preventing injury. One of our masters tells us "You're all going to get hurt. What we don't want is for you to get injured." You're going to get your share of bruises, sprains, and muscle pulls. Torn ligaments and broken bones on the other hand, are frequently the result of trying to do more than you are ready for, or forgetting just what your limits are. > Does how > much pain we are willing to accept reflect how > dedicated we are to the martial arts? No again. I think how hard you are willing to work to improve reflects you dedication. That's a very different matter. If your improvements in flexibility are very slow but you keep working for them, that to me shows dedication. Pil Seung, Kerry WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 11:24:05 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Stretching Question/Rant (long) > Last night he kicked me when I got scared (of injuring > myself) while he was pushing me down into a stretch > because I put my hands on the ground (we were were > stretching with our legs open trying to put our head > to the ground - touching the ground only stops you > from really stretching). He thinks I was being lazy > about the pain - but really my main concern is > injuring myself. This brings up something I've been meaning to kick off as a new thread. Old training techniques vs. what we -currently- believe is the correct way to train. One obvious example is the issue above. Back in the "good old days" :( this type of approach was common. Stretching done entirely the wrong way. Lots of stretching to warm up instead of stretching after you are warmed up. Balistic stretching. Bouncing as you stretch. Forcing the stretch well beyond pain, frequently into injury. Another old approach would be not allowing people to get a drink of water during training. Now we know that proper hydration is very important. Another is even more basic. Once someone is bleeding (more than a scratch) let them attend to it. I've personally experienced situations (years ago) where you had to finish class regardless of the bleeding. Perhaps another is doing high repetitions of air kicks. i.e. not kicking a pad or bag but just kicking the air (full power) hundreds of times per kick, per leg, every night. Others you can think of? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Dominic Mitchell Date: 04 Dec 2001 13:47:53 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Stretching Question/Rant (long) Hi Ellen, I have myself been concerned about stretching and flexibility for at least over a year and half --- since I decided that I would be flexible. I am 37 and I have been in TKD for 2 1/2 years. Now I do the front split. Though, I do not know the context completely, it appears to me that your concerns are real. Since my kids, now 5 and 6, started TKD a year ago, I have helped the instructors with the kids class. Sometimes, it is quite obvious when a kid is not really trying. At most you would try to open his legs, but more generally you go them and ask them if they can do better, which is usually the case. I have never seen an instructor try to push a teen or an adult physically to increase their flexibility (stretching). You have to trust the person doing the stretching exercise, this can lead to serious injuries. At 19, he is not the head instructor. Is he the only one training you? Is he doing this for everyone? You should raise your concerns to him or to someone above him. Cheers, Dominic. ------------------------------ From: Dave Weller Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:21:09 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Assorted junque Big Ken wrote: >P.S. 2. I also like Pink Flamingoes by that director from Baltimore. It >starred Ms. Divine, the 300 lb. Transvestite. Do any of you remember the >"chicken in the trailer" scene or the scene in the supermarket meat department? The Director you mention is John Waters. He is totally bizarre. Weird cosmic alignment here, Ken. we both like MA, we both like John Waters, we both like a curative toddy now and again. Maybe we were switched at birth and I'm Really Ken McD, and you're me? How will we explain this to our children? ************* Mr. Lasich wrote: >Either way, yes I believe people can change when they get their black belt. >It's their choice in how they change, and your choice on how you react to >them. You can learn from both types of people on how you want to act, and >how not to act. If you treat people with respect, that respect will return >to you, regardless of rank. If you command respect, but do nothing to earn >it, you'll find yourself alone in a world that you created for yourself. >Some people get it, some people refuse to! Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes! Respect is a 2 way street. Dictators demand respect and get only the outward, fawning appearance of it. Leaders do not ask for, nor expect it, but receive it none the less. Hmmm. ***************** Ms. Ellen P. wrote: >From: Ellen P >dedicated we are to the martial arts? Pain is not an >issue for me when I know there is a benefit. I can't >always see the benefit here except to show how much we >are willing to take and to "prove" our dedication >(coming to class everyday and participating as hard as >I can isn't enough)? Is there another way to look at >it (maybe my view is too narrow and shortsighted)? Am >I a lesser student because I would like to stretch in >a different way on my own terms? Maybe I'm starting >ep Physical abuse should not be a part of your training. I am a 46 y.o. fellow with some flexibility issues. I am always encouraged to push mySELF, but I am never pushed except in a very gentle way. I suspect that works better than my master standing on my head to force it to the floor during splits... I have always told him if I ever get into the full straight out splits to call 911 because something will have torn.... Your instructor sounds like he has a bit too much testoserone flowing (typical for that age group). If you are practicing Yoga, you are doing more demanding stretching than most martial arts require. Martial arts is VERY individualized (that's why it's referred to as an Art), and to think that every person and body must act in the same exact way verges on stupidity. ************************************* Mr. Atchinson wrote: >From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" >Ah indeed... Our Gm Kim has been heard to say that Dan-Bo ( temporary BB ) >is "baby black belt", 1st Dan is youngster, and 2nd Dan is "teenager" black >belt. A healthy ego-deflater... Right. We can see the top of the ladder as we progress towards black belt, only to find another ladder that has no end. ******************************************** Mr. Mitchell worte about bad feelings from a "very good" report at his testing >From: Dominic Mitchell >Oh well. I guess all this does not matter. I should just take >the positive side of it :) I think this is the very reason we are never shown the testing reports in our school. Look at it this way: Very good is Very Good. Congratulations on your promotion. ***************************************** Sorry for the length of this post, must have digital diarrhea. dave weller student wtf tkd "Practice a thousand hours and you learn self discipline. Practice ten thousand hours and you learn about yourself." Myamoto Musashi ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 13:37:56 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Promotions!! Alright!! Dear Ken: "... you guys can promote Bruce, Ken McD, and me to 14th degree..." Where do I send my 30 minute video tape and $55? :-) Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Craig Stovall" Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 14:28:20 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Ellen's Stretching Ellen, I can only give you this advice. Don't ever think less of yourself for wanting more out of your training. MA training should build and strengthen the body...not tear it down. It sounds to me like your body is giving you some legitimate feedback, and you're being wise by trying to listen to it. Doesn't sound to me like you are "wimping out". Stretching should not cause pain. Stretching to and beyond the point of pain is not only potentially injurious, but is also counter to what it is that you're trying to develop...limberness and flexibility. Strained and torn muscle fibers aren't very conducive to athletic performance, and YOU are the best judge as to when you have reached the critical point within any stretching position. BTW, full splits are not necessary for reaching exceptional kicking ability. It really confuses me as to why many instructors seem to push this point with their students. If it were me, I would explain that it is not my goal to become a contortionist (at least not overnight). If this wasn't acceptable to the instructor(s)...then I'd find another class. As to this... <> Sounds to me like he needs to keep his hands to himself. I have NEVER done that to a student unless they wanted some additional help with their stretch and specifically asked me to push them. Even then, it should be slow-going, and the person being stretched has the say as to how far the stretch goes. How the hell does he know when your muscles and tendons are hurting...only YOU can make that call. Stick to your guns. IMHO, you're in the right. Craig "Stretch Armstrong" Stovall _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 14:06:58 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Stretched to the Limit Dear Ellen: "....Last night he kicked me when I got scared (of injuring myself) while he was pushing me down into a stretch because I put my hands on the ground (we were were stretching with our legs open trying to put our head to the ground - touching the ground only stops you from really stretching). He thinks I was being lazy about the pain - but really my main concern is injuring myself. ...." It is my sad duty to report to you that there are a lot of stupid people in the world and you just met one of them. It has been my position for many years now that not everybody can be a MA teacher and stories such as the one that you shared only reinforces that belief. I won't pretend to understand why your teacher should treat you in this fashion. Perhaps he feels that you whine too much when pressed to extend yourself or push the limits of your envelope. Perhaps he likes the drill sargeant approach for the way it makes him feel superior to the rest of you ne'r-do-wells. I don't know, I'm not there. I think I can say this much without fear of contradiction (except from maybe Attila the Hun). Any decent teacher I have ever met believed from the git that growth in the MA is a VERY individualized thing. From this position the teacher helps you to identifiy a goal or standard and then coaches you to work towards that goal. I don't know from Chinese Splits but I have seen 8 and 10 y/o girls drop to the mat without missing a word in their conversation. Of course their technique sucks but thats a function of their age and experience. On the other hand I have also seen some Kyokushinkai practitioners who couldn't get their legs above waist level but could break baseball bats with their shins. Great guys but lookout!!! I will also add that if you have this sort of aversion to injuring yourself that needs to be respected. I don't know why this should be a particular issue for you, but if it is, its there for a reason and is part of your growing edge. A while back we had a bit of discussion about breakfalls here on DD and I mentioned then that I have seen more than a few occasions when a student is pressed to learn breakfalls and rolls faster than they are prepared. What happens is that sooner or later they get injured and then they have the injury block to overcome as well as learn the original material correctly. Oh, yeah-- and your instructor? F*** him if he can't take a joke. I don't know about you but I think a sense of humor and some compassion are basic teaching requirements. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 13:35:11 PST Subject: the_dojang: $$ > "... you guys can promote Bruce, Ken McD, and me to 14th degree..." > > Where do I send my 30 minute video tape and $55? :-) Ray Terry PO Box 110841 Camp... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 22:12:46 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Arrogant Black Belts We never had any particular problems with black belts. Maybe it`s because our school is not very traditional. But on the other hand, black belts are still respected, just like the other grades - not because they have black belts, but because they act and perform like black belts do. They in fact pass their exam everyday to get respect of their peers - in each class, on each tournament, but also outside the dojang. Couple of months ago, I got a message that a new Taekwondo school (ITF style) was opened in an elementary school in the same town. Couple of weeks later, a man of my age, wearing the ITF dobok and a 1st Kup red belt, came to my class. He entered, bowed and said: "My name is so-and-so, I run an ITF style dojang for kids in this town, and I would like to join your club". Nothing more. Nothing like "I`ve got an instructor license, maybe we could co-operate in some way, I`d like to have this or that...". Nothing. Just "I`d like to be your student". He just started to train with us and he quickly earned a tremendous amount of respect. Just training, learning, asking questions. Soon he`s going to test for his 1st Dan and I`m sure he will not be just another arrogant 1st Dan. Regards - -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 22:36:27 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: "Black Belt Mania" I was pulled aside by the instructor and basically told not to associate with the colour belts anymore. That now I was a black belt and that I need to act like one. I need to stand apart from the colour belts. It was even worse when I started instructing children's classes, then I wasn't even allowed to talk to BB's, even if they outranked me by several years!!! During the next 2 years I was with that school I was reprimanded several times for talking to colour belts. There where several of the BB's who really took this to the extreme, and would 'order' the colour belts around just because they could, and they thought it was expected of them. I have seen this type behavios in some schools, with the offenders treating color belts as punching bags or talking to them like they are trash. It comes along with the attitude of looking at the attainment of the BB like winning a lottery ticket or validation for some short coming in thier own lives. But this atitude also comes from the instrucotr in some cases. Respect it seems is sometimes only a word written on a poster in the gym and not practiced or taught.......... Jack O ------------------------------ From: "S. H. WEE" Date: Wed, 5 Dec 2001 09:38:33 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #665 Dear Frank, Apology accepted. I agree that some of the moves in the new sport Wu-Shu have little real combat value, but the complexity and difficulty involved do make our standard Taekwondo or Hapkido looked like kid stuff. IMHO, whoever with that kind of speed, agility and power can pick-up any combat related art in a very short time. Regards, S. H. Wee > From: KodanjaClay@aol.com > Date: Tue, 4 Dec 2001 08:56:57 EST > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #664 > > I would like to post an apology. Seems my non typing fingers got me yet > again. I meant Mr. Wee, not Mr. Lee. > > My sincerest apologies. > Master Frank Clay ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2001 21:19:59 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #666 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!