From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #678 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 12 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 678 In this issue: the_dojang: a lot of things to learn the_dojang: Failed Color Belt Test? the_dojang: Re: Gun Training More Comment the_dojang: Re: Gun Training the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #676 the_dojang: Re: Donnla's Gun question the_dojang: quicker? more powerful? the_dojang: RE: Kicking the_dojang: RE: testing/advancement the_dojang: firearms skills the_dojang: Color belts the_dojang: BMI and Body fat the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~900 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 7:03:28 PST Subject: the_dojang: a lot of things to learn > I have another question, how do you instructors who do incorporate weapons > self-defense into programmes approach the issue of when to use a gun? The best course of study I've seen on this topic is Mas Ayoob's LFI-I (Lethal Force Institute) course. A shortened version of the basics is included in his course Stress Fire (I believe is the name). Mas teaches when it is and is not justified (legally) to employ deadly force. Of course, depending on where you live, lethal force can be a ball bat, Mag-Lite, shod foot and/or firearm and legally justified can also vary. > I had an argument with a friend from Nevada who claimed that since he could > carry a gun, he didn't need to learn other self-defense tactics. I disagreed > saying he needed to get the assailant far enough away to get the gun out, > aim, presumably get it ready too (I know zip about guns) before firing. > What do you think? Sounds like you already know the answer... :) This is somewhat similar to those that attempt to claim "why do I need to learn to use a firearm, I'm a Black Belt!". Or those that claim "the only thing to learn with firearms is how to pull the trigger". Sad... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "NESSWORTHY, KEN" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:59:10 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Failed Color Belt Test? I was at a grading (not taken part) when I was a 1st Dan and I saw a master stop the grading halfway through and dress the group down for not kihaping and lack of spirit, he then re-started the grading and still the same thing. He then ask the students to leave and brought it all their parents and talked to them regarding what he had seen and told the student. The parents then went outside and dressed down the children. The students then went back into the dojang to re-start the grading again. It seemed that the talk they had from their master and parents did not work so he failed everyone there and then. The grading was not finished and everyone was in shock. The funny thing is he had a daughter and son grading also. On Sunday I held a grading and the best group were our little dragons. Their TSD spirit was high and they were really proud of what they were doing and had achieved. The next group up was bad, one student in particular was really bad and I am going to have a word with his parents and defer him for a month to see if his attitude changes, if not then it will be a complete fail for him. Ken ------------------------------ From: Victor Cushing Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:17:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Gun Training More Comment Here's a mutil-part reply to a critical question. >have another question, how do you instructors who do incorporate weapons >self-defense into programmes approach the issue of when to use a gun? I >had an argument with a friend from Nevada who claimed that since he could >carry a gun, he didn't need to learn other self-defense tactics. I >disagreed saying he needed to get the assailant far enough away to get the >gun out, aim, presumably get it ready too (I know zip about guns) before >firing. What do you think? >Donnla. (1) Teach awareness as first most important part of self defense... unless you have a duty to engage with potential attacker because you are military, law enforcement, security, etc or the confrontation is unavoidable because you are trapped, surprised or cannot disengage (aged aunt in a walker beside you, your child in hand)...see the problem, walk, stroll away or run. Usually if you have time to consider use of weapon, you may have had enough advance warning to avoid conflict as well. (2) Empty hand skills are an absolute must. If the attack is upon you, you will need to shed the worst of it, flinch-recover-counter, or move/zone to a safer position. There is ample data that simply trying to draw a handgun under close attack with knife will probably get you killed. (3) You must have a clear idea of what justifies the use of deadly force (even though you will not be checking your notes when someone is trying to put a screwdriver into your eye). I warn my students that they have to know local/state laws and that I am not an attorney. I insist that they at least understand that certain things are almost always considered in the justified use of deadly force: (a) is threat real? (b) is it happening now? (c) is the assailant able to carry out the threat? and at least two other legal issues (d) do not engage in fights/contests or you will lose the self defense argument, and (e) depending on jurisdiction, you may have a duty to retreat. Deadly force might be the use of a weapon or simpler things like gouging an eye or breaking a neck, so the thought process has to apply even if you do not carry a concealed weapon (4) Practice, practice, practice. If you are going to count on a tool to save your life, be sure you can use it. Maintain the tool, draw it under different circumstances. Visualize various attack situations, and think of what you would do. This applies whether tool is mace, cane, asp, pocket stick, folding tactical knife, handgun, shotgun, or the hood ornament of 1984 Corvette. None of this negates Ray's earlier comments. I teach basic stick attacks, basic knife attacks, and demonstrate how firearms can be used in close quarters to make students sensitive to what they will be up against. There is more that can be said on this subject, i just tried to touch on the basics. I would suggest that "friend from Nevada" is woefully ignorant of the reality of close quarter use of a firearm. Vic Cushing ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:29:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Gun Training I incorporate firearms into my own training, though not as much as I'd like lately. However, at the program I teach at Gold's Gym, I do not teach any firearms. I'm currently working on something with a friend who is a LEO and a POST certified firearms instructor to maybe do some things together and offer both firearms and hand to hand to specific groups. That's down the pike a bit though. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com ------------------------------ From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:43:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #676 On the roundhouse kick... > > >>According to 'Dynamical Analysis of Taekwondo basic kicks' written by Sung, > > Nak Joon, professor of Hosuh University in Korea, Dolyco Chaki takes only > > 0.19sec on average from the moment you lift the foot until the moment you > > strike the target; this technique is the fastest of all kicks. Further, the > > impact the target gets when you execute Dolyo Chaki amounts to 1098N, which > > is the strongest of all. With respect to time, intensity, and accuracy, > > therefore, Dolyo Chaki is the fastest and delivers the biggest impact.>> > > > > Roundhouse kick faster than front kick?? It may be easier to score with and > > more powerful, but I doubt faster. > > Seems like it could be quicker. Assuming both are rear leg, a front kick > has more of a forced body movement involved whereas a round kick seems more > natural, more of a swing motion. Yes? No? My two cents on this topic would be that the roundhouse kick moves faster, but that the front kick gets there quicker. Does that make sense? A rear leg roundhouse moves very fast and because of the length of the lever involved (the leg), it hits like a hammer (ie. HARD). The lead leg front kick is much closer to the target, and although it may not move as fast, it still gets there first. That's why you can use the front kick to the hip to off-balance someone who is throwing a roundhouse kick. It is also harder to block a thrusting kick than a swinging kick. > On the power side, I've always heard that a back kick generated the most > power. Comments on that? If that's a spinning back kick, I'll agree. My only evidence is that I've seen more broken ribs as a result of that kick than from others. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 10:46:59 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Donnla's Gun question Donnla askded: I have another question, how do you instructors who do incorporate weapons self-defense into programmes approach the issue of when to use a gun? I had an argument with a friend from Nevada who claimed that since he could carry a gun, he didn't need to learn other self-defense tactics. I disagreed saying he needed to get the assailant far enough away to get the gun out, aim, presumably get it ready too (I know zip about guns) before firing. What do you think? There are so many variables. I don't know who your friend is, or why he carries a gun... But... He sounds on the face of it someone who could get himself in trouble. One, I hope he is trained to use the gun. I hate seeing people buy a gun for self-defense and they have no training. And shooting at the range is a lot different than shooting a person who is out to kill you. Note - A person who is out to kill you! Shoot a person and kill them for a different reason and you are going to have even more troubles with the law than if you shoot someone legitimately. There are just so many things to look at. If you shoot someone, you are going to be talking to the police, may be brought up on criminal charges (and if so you better hope it was legitmate self-defense for your defense) and you may be facing civil suit by family of the person you shot. And a whole slew of other negative side effects. (Talking about shooting someone, and then actually doing it are very different, that's why they have counselors for police officers that get involved with shootings.) That's my short rant on guns, and mind you, I am very pro gun. I'm trained with them, use them, etc. I am very pro RESPONSIBLE gun ownership. As for that being your only self-defense training. Well, do you have it with you 24/7? Bad guy breaks in your house when you are in the shower? Returning home from a wedding in your tux and stop somewhere and get attacked? At a club or concert that searches you before you go in and won't allow any weapons? And you can go on and on..... What you said is true as well. Hand to hand stuff is your last ditch so you can get to your weapons, whether it be pepper spray, knife or gun. (Note - the pepper spray is not going to get you into the trouble a knife or gun will) There are a lot of drills and training exercises to practice defending yourself from attack and then drawing your weapon. Depending how you carry, it is not always realistic to think you can draw and use it right away. You may be forced to defend with your hands to buy you time to draw. The act of going for your weapon instead of stopping the attack coming at you, or getting off line of it may be your downfall. A firearm is one tool in your complete self-defense/safety program or package. It is a very good one for certain situations, and a very poor one for others. (You going to shoot your obnoxious drunk brother-in-law at the family reunion when all he really needs is a little joint lock applied as an attitude adjuster?)(You going to shoot and kill someone that pepper spra y would have stopped?) Guns are valuable - put they are only a part. They are not the be all and end all that some people make them out to be. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com ------------------------------ From: "Prince Loeffler" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 08:52:13 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: quicker? more powerful? <<<<>>> Comments on that? Ray, Although there are different variation of back kicks. The Shorinji's style of back kick is considered to be the most powerful kick in its arsenal. Originaly the chinese calls it "the Angry Horse Kick". however without the snapping tecniques rather it is a kick delivered full thrust. Imagine your self with your back to a door, your hip is in a 45 degree angle and your knee's is cocked high and then just kick to the rear just like a horse! ------------------------------ From: Gregory Giddins Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 09:54:33 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Kicking Mr. Sims wrote: "Maybe we could open this to the Net and get peoples feedback on which kick has induced the greatest amount of discomfort or disability for them?" No doubt about it, the roundkick. I am on my 7th week of Physical therapy on a hip disorder, and although i am making significant progress, the roundkick still causes quite a bit of pain, second only to the hook kick. I've seen a number of specialists over the last few months, and talked to a few others, and all have come to a consensus that the kicks in my martial art have really done a number on my body. Couple the extreme range of motion with high velocity impact, with improper stretching (a bane of the MA world, in my opinion), and with a damaged knee to boot, you get one gimpy 29 year old. One of the key points I have getten rammed down my thorat lately is a failure to address the overuse of the hip muscles without balancing them out by exercising the inner thigh, and stretching the IT band (that runs along the outside of the thigh, from the knee to upper hip) and the Psoas muscle (that runs along the front of the hip). Constant chambering for the round kick has severely unbalanced my hips, and has lead to hip displacia and impingement problems. So...... a word of advice to those out there in the kicking arts: if your warm ups and stretches don't address the IT band and Psoas stretches I would suggest doing a little research and starting them up yourself. Anyway, that's my take on it, from a hindight is 20/20 perspective. Greg Giddins ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 11:11:05 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: testing/advancement > From: DDODGE2 > Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 09:17:05 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Failed Color Belt Test? > > Hello All, > > After reading the posts about nervousness before color belt testing > I was just wondering if anyone here has ever failed a Color belt test? > (excluding BB testing of course). > I haven't known of any, but then our school is so large it could easily happen and I wouldn't know. I have been told by my original master instructor that sometimes a Gup would fail, with the annotation "next time" written on their test form. > it seems > to me that color belt testing is more of a "Showing" then a "Testing". > Is this the exception, the rule, or a sign that I > found 2 McDojang's? > These tests also seem to be "showings" in our school, which is fine, because the real test isn't just at the test. You're tested every day in class by how you perform technically, how often you attend, and what attitude and spirit you project. > Another reason I ask is because there is a Red Belt at my current > school who is obviously nowhere near the skill level of the other Red > Belts. He shows up regularly for class but just can't seem to do the > kicks properly. I find this odd because he is definetly the exception not > the rule Yeah, I see some of this, too. ( It even applies to me... I can't do a spinning hook kick to save my soul... something about the combined motions of the knees, hips, and lower back just doesn't want to work. Stay away from my front kick, though ;) ) Some cases I know involve exceptional circumstances. One young man's parents were told when was born he would never walk or talk; he was basically pronounced a "vegetable". He has a job, drives himself around, and just got his Cho-Dan. His spirit and intensity are unmatched. In the cases I don't understand I just have to shrug and figure the teachers know better and know more than I do. > Has my Instructer failed in his resposibility to this one individual? > I'd say by your lack of experience that you aren't ready to make that judgment yet. Keep it mind, though. This is the sort of thing that helps you build an approach to teaching should you ever wish to. Keeping an open eye and an open mind will let you pick up plenty of things you will want to remember to make you a better teacher, and a few things that you will want to avoid! > Could the problem actually be ME!? Am I being to critical of this one > individual? > Well, we all need to have standards for ourselves and for others. Obviously the difficulty comes in trying to apply common standards to groups of people where no two of them are alike, and none of them come with the same "baggage". I try to remind myself that we're all different and have our own circumstances. Actually, remembering isn't all that hard for me... I seem to be one of those that is constantly struggling! ;) 'nough rambling... Kerry WTF TKD ------------------------------ From: TNTcombatives@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:57:22 EST Subject: the_dojang: firearms skills <> I teach all my MA students about accepted (in a court of law) use of force. I use force continuum outlines and explain the laws pertaining to when force can be used. This starts right at the white belt level. Students are taught self defense moves in stages, so that they can vary the force use depending on the type of attack. Using the force continuums, I teach what appropriate responses are to certain attacks, and have developed my SD and 1-steps to follow them. I have also helped friends modify their SD programs to reflect some reality. A simple wrist grab by a playful buddy should not result in their trachea being crushed. Many SD moves taught in dojang out there are very excessive in the use of force, and if the techniques were used, would get the student sued for assault. Students are taught weapons defenses starting about intermediate level. They learn about the weapons so they know how better to defend against them. One of my requirements for 3rd gup is a firearms safety class, and I teac h BB's operation and tactics. In my police programs, the students are already familiar with use of force (well, most of them). The difference is that a large amount of cop training focuses on deadly force use, and not a lot on unarmed stuff. Many of my LE students want to use too much force when going hands on because much of what they were taught prior to my classes doesn't actually work when someone resists...so they just do it harder. <> LOL. This is one of my favorite times during my police classes. There is always some officer full of handgun bravado that during an initial group discussion on charging attackers tells the group he would just shoot him.(officers are in full duty gear with training guns). It is standard order with my trainers and I that the instructor furthest away from the person give a loud kihap and attack, take them down, disarm them, and 'shoot' them with their own weapon...then tell them they need a lil' bit of work on their hand to hand skills. With that reality check, the student usually is the hardest worker during the rest of the class. The other point this brings up, is the absolute belief in guns. Yes, I am armed most of the time, as my job requires it (and the fact that I hate running into crackheads I have arrested when I'm grocery shopping), but using lethal force is not always an option. You need to be in fear of serious physical injury or death for yourself or another person to be able to use lethal force against an attacker. Even during duty, I have drawn my sidearm, only to have to put it back again when I realize the hairy situation is only stubble...requiring non-lethal force options (baton, OC, hands on etc.). Hope this gives some punch to your argument Donnla. Mark Gajdostik TNT-Police Combatives ------------------------------ From: Loucat101@aol.com Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 14:54:09 EST Subject: the_dojang: Color belts There's a red belt at my Dojang too, her mother is good friends with my instructor and I can't help thinking that's the only reason she's got to red belt. She misses most of the classes and at the grading the only thing she did was break a board but she still passed. However a green belt failed because he didn't know his kicks properly...seems very unfair to me. And on the subject of the red belt, I need some advice. Every time I work with this girl (she's the only one close to my height and weight) she refuses to fall. I was doing throws for my last grading and she wouldn't let me throw her...I could have forced her to go down but I have always been told never to force a partner into anything...but then at the grading I had loads of trouble because I wasn't used to throwing people. This girl will fall when the instructors around...just not when the instructors not looking. Should I resort to doing a 'proper' (nasty) technique so she will go down? I am very reluctant to do this but it seems like the only way. She's a red belt, I'm a orange belt...so I can't really *tell* her to fall. Any ideas? Louise ------------------------------ From: Charles Richards Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:42:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: BMI and Body fat Growing up, until I learned that you could actually measure body fat (through BIA), I was fairly depressed about how much I weighed and that I always registered "fat" or "extremely obese" on the charts in P.E. Now I know I was only slightly overweight. So, while finding your BMI may work for people that are usually within the "average range", it's not going to work for everybody. I guess I'm a little "heavier built" than most folks with a 52" chest, while my legs and arms are shorter-than-average-for-my-height (most of my height/weight is in my torso). - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jeff, Thanks for the information on body fat percentages. My co-workers refer to me as a "rather large guy." in college when I held 183-186 my chest was only 42", currently I'm a 46 extra tall (6' 3.5"). Besides the upper body and obligatory ONE BIG AB :o) a lot of my weight is in my legs (quads). I can only wear "relaxed fit" jeans due to my quad size, so since my BMI tells me I'm just on the heavy side of borderline at 238-240, I'd really like to find out what my % body fat is, and a relatively inexpensive way to measure/monitor that periodically. As ever, posting something on the digest usually ends up in me learning something. Cheers, Charles R. Moja Kwan __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:41:48 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #678 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!