From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #687 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 17 Dec 2001 Vol 08 : Num 687 In this issue: the_dojang: Tough Sparring the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #686 the_dojang: Re: Hyung stuff the_dojang: Afghanistan the_dojang: Modern Arnis Camp the_dojang: Ken Vin Style TKD? the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #684 the_dojang: Kicking, part 2. Some quick thoughts. the_dojang: new poomse the_dojang: New forms the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:59:55 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Tough Sparring Tyranmarla, No one except the assistant instructor can say why he did not stop the sparring match. However, It is my belief that the power necessary to really bruise and injure some one the way you say is just too much for an orange belt level, assumming you are at 7 to 9 gup level. These things sometimes happen, even in good schools because the instructor in charge is not paying attention. Green belts, usually 6 and 5th gups, gain a lot of skill very rapidly, and sometimes lack the maturity and understanding to deal with it properly. Young males also tend to develop an ego problem, especially when sparring women. All these things must be dealt with by the instructor, and most instructors keep a close watch on these ranks during sparring. Occassionally, someone does get hit to hard a few times. However, if this type of behavior is tolerated on a regular basis, I would advise you to consider another school. I am all for good contact in sparring, but it should be graduated with rank, and higher ranks should be taught to use control with lower ranks. It takes time to build a good defense, and to acquire the timing and coordination to deal with hard attacking techniques. As for you, if you train in a school that trains with hard contact, expect to have some bruises and minor injuries from time to time, and know that some major injuries are also possible. No way to avoid it completely. You have to go with the knowledge that you can be hurt from time to time. That way it is not such a blow to your spirit when you are injured. The key here is to realize that this is not happening to you. That is, do not let this or anything happen to you. You must realize that you are in control. It is your choice where you train. It is your choice when you spar. And it is your choice to continue sparring. This attitude puts you in control and empowers you. Hope this helps. Danny Dunn <<<<<>>>>>>>>>>> ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:11:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #686 In a message dated 12/17/2001 9:43:38 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 7:11:08 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Kukkiwon poomsae >> The Kukkiwon has several projects underway to create a new set of poomsae. >> New Dan forms are being created first and should be introduced this coming >> year. After that new gup level forms will be introduced. > > I have a stupid question: Why? Just a guess, but the complaint in Kukkiwon circles for some time now has been that the TKD forms do not well reflect TKD sparring. If this is the motiviation the new forms could(?) be something rather different from how we view forms today.>> Assuming that's true, I think they (those in Kukkiwon circles) are losing touch with the purpose of forms. Forms are not for sparring -- forms are a way to focus the MA's concentration, techniques, and learning into a series of preplanned fights. It develops the focus and timing of the MA, as well as footwork, stances, movement, blocks and strikes. Sparring isn't the same thing -- the range of techniques are more limited, and the range of targets is also less. Techniques that would work in the ring could get you head handed to you in the street. If this was true (And I don't know if it is), it would seem to me that TKD, as practiced in Kukkiwon circles, would lose the right to be called a Martial Art and be regulated to the status as a Martial Sport. >>Another guess is that if (and this is a big if) the ITF is to merge with the WTF one roadblock could be which forms to use. Perhaps neither of the current sets would be used.?.<< From what I've heard of the current ITF/WTF relationship, Master Timmerman has a better chance of being elected President of the United States then those two groups getting together...... Craig. ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 08:42:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hyung stuff Dear Ray: "....Just a guess, but the complaint in Kukkiwon circles for some time now has been that the TKD forms do not well reflect TKD sparring. If this is the motiviation the new forms could(?) be something rather different from how we view forms today....." Having been a part of an on-going discussion with individuals on another Net these last few weeks regarding the nature of influences which produce change in hyung, I think this is about the last straw. How many times have I heard (and said) that hyung/kata/Forms are not merely a chain of exercises one pastes together for some training effect. The heritage of kata from Southern China, to Okinawa, to Japan, to Korea, for instance, by itself is a complex interplay of culture, personality, religion, organization and combat. The result is a series of sophisticated martial experiences any one or two of which is enough to keep a practitioner busy in study for quite a while. Given that the modern Korean MA community elected to use kata imported at the close of WW II for the basis of many of their concussive arts such as TKD, why not stay with these kata and learn them in depth. These folks made their MA bed. I think its time that they copped to their efforts and slept in it! On the other hand, there are a variety of Chinese arts which have also contributed to Korean MT. How is it that these TKD leaders are not pursuing an investigation along these lines? And, if the effort is to produce some brand new strain of MT (aka Sport TKD) why not cop to THAT and do as the Chinese have done ("wu shu" as opposed to "chuan fa") and identify it in some manner distinctly different from the older traditions. My prayer is that someday I will wake-up to find that a vast number of high-ranking Korean personalities will have come to their senses and put the integrity of their cultural heritage ahead of their rice bowls. Related to this, I keep thinking about the comment that was made some months back about Hapkido being whatever a particular personality said it was. If I were to apply that logic to the TKD hyung issue at hand I would have to say that the powers-that-be in Korea are not up to the responsibilities of caring after the heritage which has been entrusted to them as they seem willing to change things at a whim. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 8:01:25 PST Subject: the_dojang: Afghanistan Sorry folks. No tournament travel to Afghanistan recommended for this coming winter... :) Forwarded message: AFGHANISTAN Travel Warning United States Department of State Bureau of Consular Affairs Washington, DC 20520 December 17, 2001 The Department of State strongly warns U.S. citizens against travel to Afghanistan. An interim government is expected to take charge in Afghanistan until national elections can take place. Nevertheless, U.S. forces are still engaged in military action against the remnants of the former Taliban regime and the terrorist al-Qaida network. Afghan opponents of the former Taliban regime are also engaged in military operations in several parts of the country. Travel in all areas of Afghanistan, including the capital Kabul and all major cities, is unsafe due to military operations, banditry, and the possibility of unrest given the fluid political and military situation. Several foreign journalists were murdered in November 2001. An estimated 5-7 million land mines are scattered throughout the countryside and pose a danger to travelers. Much of the country is also facing an acute food shortage. There is little infrastructure to provide any public services. The United States opened a liaison office at Bebe Mahro (Airport) Road, Kabul on December 17, 2001. There is no consular officer included among the permanent staff. As a result, the office will not be able to provide consular services, even in emergencies. Emergency services to U.S. citizens who travel to or remain in Afghanistan despite this Warning are severely limited and will have to be provided by the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad. U.S. citizens who decide to enter Afghanistan in spite of this Warning are strongly urged to register and obtain updated security information in neighboring Pakistan at the American Embassy in Islamabad or the U.S. Consulate in Peshawar at the following addresses: U.S. Embassy Islamabad, Diplomatic Enclave, Ramna 5, Islamabad, telephone (92-51) 2080-0000, Consular Section telephone (92-51) 2080-2700, fax (92-51) 822-632 U.S. Consulate Peshawar, 11 Hospital Road, Cantonment, Peshawar, telephone (92-91) 279-801 through 803, fax (92-91) 276-712 This replaces the Department of State Travel Warning for Afghanistan issued November 23, 2001, to provide information about the opening of a U.S. liaison office. ------------------------------ From: "tim hartman" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 15:29:42 Subject: the_dojang: Modern Arnis Camp Greeting, I am proud to announce the first World Modern Arnis Alliance training camp. It will be held on May 3-5, 2002 in Buffalo New York. This will be hosted Horizon Martial Arts. We will be focusing on the foundation of the art devised by the late Grand Master Remy A. Presas. The primary teaching staff will consist of: Datu Tim Hartman Is GM Presas' highest active ranked Black Belt. He is one of six in the world to have earned the title of Datu (chieftain of leader). He has been inducted into the North American Black Belt Hall of Fame as "Arnis Master of the Year 2001". Mr. Hartman has been spending much of his time teaching in Europe spreading the art. Mr. Hartman will be teaching: Palis-Palis, Mano Y Daga and Tapi-Tapi counters. Guro Jaye Spiro Is a long time student of GM Presas'. Ms. Spiro is a 4th degree Black Belt which makes her one of the highest ranked people in the system. She has taught many seminars in defensive tactics and assault prevention and has received a "Life Time Achievement" award at the National Women's Martial Arts Federation Training Camp 2001. Ms. Spiro will teaching: Modern Arnis Concepts applied to Self Defense scenarios. Guro Rick Manglinong Started training with GM Presas in the early 70's on the West Coast. In addition to being a 2nd degree under GM Remy he also hold a 4th under GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's brother). Mr. Manglinong will be teaching:"Old School" Modern Arnis and Kombaton Concepts. We will also have as our special guest instructors: Guro Tom Macaluso Is a Jeet Kune Do Kali instructor. He won a silver medal in the 1992 World Championships in Cebu for Full Contact Sick Fighting. He will be teaching: Largo Mano Stick Fighting Concepts. Dr. Maung Gyi Is the Grand Master of the Burmese art called Bando. He was a good friend to GM Presas and has taught with him at seminars in the past. He will be teaching: Stick Grappling There will be a Black Belt Grading on Friday night, a banquet on Saturday night and we will be closing our camp with a stick fighting tournament on Sunday afternoon. The Details: When: May 3-5, 2002 Where: Horizon Martial Arts, Buffalo New York Cost: $175 by April 15, 2002 $225 After April 15, 2002 These prices include the training, banquet & the tournament. Payment: Visa, Master Card, American Express, Check, Money Order or Cash. Corporate Sponsors: Martial Talk, Warriors' Den Products & Silverstar Webdesigns. For more information Call Horizon Martial Arts @ 716-675-0899, E-mail wmarnis@wmarnis.com , Web info www.wmarnis.com Janice A. Stranc Director of Operations World Modern Arnis Alliance _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Bill Ouellette Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 11:05:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Ken Vin Style TKD? Hi All, Has anyone heard of a Taekwondo Style called "Ken Vin" If so, can someone share what they know about it. I was told it is 1500 years old. I guess brought here to the US and practice by the Dallas Monks. Also, I heard all the kicks are done with the heal only. Bill ~ ------------------------------ From: "Marcel Mason" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 16:15:26 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V8 #684 Why the instructor didn't stop the match is something that you should definately ask him/her, what you are describing should not have happened. I have sparred with different people above (in some cases *well*above* my belt level and the rule has always been that you cannot fight above the belt level of the person you are sparring with. Keep the spirits up - there are show off's and idiots everywhere, don't let them get you down. - --------------- Original Message Follows ------------------ I was sparring with a green belt, and he really beat me up. My question and comments is: Why didn't the assistant teacher stop the sparring matches? How come no one helped me but a black belt who thought he injured me? Why didn't the class comment at the end regarding sparring? I thought that you sparred according to your opponents rank? My spirit is really low, not looking for sympathy, just answers. Have you seen http://www.norada.com/tour ? ------------------------------ From: Gregory Giddins Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 10:38:10 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Kicking, part 2. Some quick thoughts. Howdy Bruce, Bruce asked: "my question is that had these confounding issues been addressed (IE. appropriate stretch and warm-up, moderate repetitions, etc) do you think the Roundhouse would still hold that position in your mind?" Well, that's an impossible question to answer for sure, but I'll share my thoughts. I have learned quite a few stretches and assorted exercises that may help [are helping] in recovering after the damage is already done, but it's unclear if any of them would have prevented the injury/disfunction in the first place. I am going on the assumption that they WILL for my students, and would have for myself, but I don't know for sure. So far, no students are as gimpy as I am. [shrug] But I make sure they do far less repitions than I did at their level. That's the best I can answer that. However, 'moderate repitions' definitely would have had an impact, and that is something I instill in my students from day one: nothing to the extreme, and always counter balance your exercises, or you'll pay for it later. And 'zero repetitions' probably would have avoided the problem entirely. If I never threw a round kick I am fairly confident I wouldn't have the impingement problems I have today. (no-brainer) If I never got invilved in a striking art I wouldn't have bumps and bruises, either. But it's a risk I'm willing to take, because I enjoy it so darned much. However, then you asked: "Would it be possible to teach an effect(ive) Roundhouse for self-defense purposes and not have profficiency automatically entail disability at a later point in life?" Based on your qualifier: "effective roundkick for self-defense", probably not, unless you spent huge amounts of time stretching (above and beyond what could take place in a typical class) and counter strengthening. If you are going to try and defend yourself with a TKD roundkick you had better be one heckuva fast and efficient roundkicker. And that would require massive repitions (and lots of impact). I, personally, don't think you could get that proficient without doing so many reps that wou would be risking damage/disfunction to your joints later in life (which is exactly what happened to me), unless you had large (LARGE) blocks of time you could spend working (stretching)your hips and assorted body parts, like I am being forced to now :-(. But that's just speculation. I'm no biomechanical expert. I don't think an average recreational student (practicing 2-3 times/wk, with limited stetching time inbetween classes, at home) could get that proficient and still remain healthy, long-term. I encourage my students [all adults, I don't teach kids] to learn the kick, but always with caution, and good sense. (side note: I have had, and do have students who are so flexible in the hip/groin that they probably will never experience any ill effects, but they are the exeption, there are always exeptions...damn their eyes) Some of the other kicks are much more natural, depending on how they are taught, and seem to cause a lot less strain on the body. I encourage my students to become more proficient in the front kicks (thrusting kick, especially), as they seem to cause less strain. The round kick has it's uses, but I feel it comes with risks, as well. So to sum up my musings: I feel the rd kick (the way I was taught it in TSD) causes too much strain on the various involved body parts if it's practiced enough to become proficient enough with it to use it for self defense. In small amounts I'm sure it's fine. But in large amounts I'd say it's the hardest on the body. (p.s., my first post that confused you was because I wasn't very clear, I wrote the post in haste, and should have cleaned it up quite a bit. Sorry, I hope this clears it up a little. I'll try to take more time in the future, but I don't have as much time to write these as I would like.) Greg (Roundkick is of the Devil, Bobby, the Devil.) Giddins (just kidding about the devil part, please hold your flames.) ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 20:52:50 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: new poomse Here's an educated guess as to why the Kukkiwon is trying to make new forms. If they do, the sales of books, tapes, additional seminars, instructor certification fees.......and on and on, etc.. will make a huge amount of money for the KKW. Once again we have deluded ourselves into thinking that we practice Taekwondo instead of Take-ones-dough. disgusted in Colorado, Rich _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:19:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: New forms Folks, just a few comments from this unworthy person. The rumor of new Kukkiwon forms is still nothing but a rumor at this point. Please don't get all worried or upset about it. It is a fair likelihood that nothing will occur. Re changes. From what I know the Taekwondo forms changed from the original set practiced in the 40s and early 50s three different times thru the early 70s. Since then they haven't changed. Not that this is good or bad, but they clearly haven't changed in the last 30 years, which seems like a fair record to me. Re pre-arranged fights and concentration. We really don't know the "real" purpose for why 'krotty' forms were created in the first place. Some were probably created to strengthen the legs, some for better wind, others probably served as a roadmap to the vital points on the human body. The evolution of the forms in the Korean striking arts to be for improving concentration, etc. is probably a relatively new development(last ~50 years). Why not other new developments? Traditions are nice, many times they are great, but they must start somewhere. I say 'get out of the box' and explore new and different ways of doing things. Even if the forms are changed, I seriously doubt the Kukkiwon will attempt to visit the thousands upon thousands of TKD dojangs around to world to ensure that the pyung-ahn, kicho, chon-ji, palgue and taeguek forms are no longer being taught. But then I was wrong one other time... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2001 14:22:18 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V8 #687 ******************************** It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2001: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11!