From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V9 #20 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 17 Jan 2002 Vol 09 : Num 020 In this issue: the_dojang: RE : Weapons and the ATA... the_dojang: RE: Feud stuff (Sorta) the_dojang: Re: More weapons stuff the_dojang: Taking the fued to the mat the_dojang: Weapons Training the_dojang: For Dojang Digest the_dojang: Re: Hello the_dojang: bowing the_dojang: Wrong the_dojang: Re: Clay and friend fued the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V9 #17 the_dojang: Re: Clay confused? the_dojang: Re: Weapons Certification Re: the_dojang: Re: Weapons Certification the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Brian Myers Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 15:27:45 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: RE : Weapons and the ATA... >> I could be wrong on this but a question for the board, how many of you have >> recieved a seperate belt or "weapons ranking" from your organization? >I believe that the ATA might, via its Protech (sp?) program. ??? >Ray Terry You are correct sir. The Protech program is just as you think, a way of getting separate certification for weapons. It also embodies those aspects of weapons instruction that Mr. Sims dislikes the most... Sims : 1.) Mixing and matching aspects of disparate arts. Yes, the ATA does this. They teach many weapons of "dubious" origin. They newest two are the best of all in my book. They recently started teaching a sword form (I believe only for 5th dan and above) that uses a sword of unknown origin and in ways that I have yet to be able to identify. They do not even "regulate" the style of sword to be used, and most choose the curved Katana-style blade for recognition purposes. The other, even more questionable form, called the "raptor form" involves the Japanese Kama. I won't even begin to go into all the strange questions this form invokes. In the past the ATA has always been "carefull" to invent some type of story to cover the origin of the weapons, but with these last two they don't seem to be bothering. Sims : 2.) Certification of what I consider sub-categories of a larger discipline. This too seems to be happening. As a student progresses thru the Dan ranks they must learn use and forms for single and double Ssahng Jeol Bahng (Nunchuku), single and double Bahng Mahng Ee (Escrima Sticks, Jahng Bahng (Bo), and Ji Pahng Ee (Cane). These are part of the materials learned that must be demonstrated at each rank testing. Then, if you want to teach one of these weapons, you must take a "weekend" seminar, and pay your two-bits. The newest twist on this, although somewhat hard to explain, is that in competition if you are judging these weapons you must be specially certified as a weapons judge for that type (yes more fees and one day seminars). If you attend a school that does not have someone certified to teach a particular weapon you must a) find another instructor to learn it for testing, and b) can not use that weapon in competition - even if you have tested with it. So not only is the use of weapons part of the "regular" curriculum, but they have found more ways to make you pay for seminars to be eligable to do "anything" with that weapon. Not to mention my personal pet peave - teaching 5 - 10 yr olds how to "use" a weapon (yes this includes the Kama). Seems kind of dangerous to teach a child how to use a weapon when smacking their brother or sister "for no reason" still seems like a good idea to them! To me the whole Protech system seems like a scam. This is coming from a former ATA member (and believer). What once was a very well thought out martial art is fast becoming a McDojang (to steal a phrase!) They have taken a form of Taekwondo (Songham), that is rich with information and technique and prostituted it purely for money. They will try and denigh that the changes of late are financially driven, but a brief look tells anyone interested that the students gain little while the ATA bank account grows fatter. Ok, off my soapbox - before an ATA member uses me for sword practice! Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 07:34:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Feud stuff (Sorta) Dear Rich: ".....Since I don't know how this argument got started, nor do I really care, I can only say this; Master Whalen's rank and knowledge do not stem from paper certificates hanging on the wall, organizational patches he may wear, or the black bit of cloth he wears around his waist. Judging by his students and having seen Master Whalen perform on the mat, he is an excellent Martial Arts Instructor as well as practitioner, while I am sure he would not want his certifications to be voided, even if they were, his considerable knowledge of Hapkido would remain......" Thank you for stating what I considered the obvious. I chose not to state this seemingly apparent truth in my post as it seemed so transparently obvious that comment would have been unnecessary. Reading your words, however, I remembered back to when I was asked to leave the World Hapkido Federation and recall quite clearly how wounded, ambushed and unappreciated I felt. Sometime later, secondary to comments I had made here on the DD, I was advised that such further comments could result in my being asked to leave the Kidohae. I would like to think that I am above being influenced by such veiled threats. I would also like to believe that Right and Truth win-out over Evil and Lies. The fact is, though, that I am more than a little proud of the affiliation and recognition that both the WHF and KiDo Association brought into my life. I have the certificates displayed on my wall and am not reluctant to continue to plan my MA future in deference to agenda of EITHER organization. To be asked to leave an organization, have ones' certification called into question, or to have rank or standing revoked can be a painful thing. Consider, for a moment, just have much energy gets expended in the discussions regarding authentic ranking and certification if there is any doubt how much such things can come to mean to us. Intellectually --- which is to say, using only my head--- I would heartily encourage M Whalen along exactly those lines you have identified. He is an extraordinary MA whose passion and desire to promote the very best that Hapkido has to offer our country should transcend the strictures of an organizations' recognition or regard. However,I must tell you, Rick, that if Hal can find a way to keep his Heart out of this situation, he is a far better man than I. On an emotional basis I can sincerely appreciate the emotional issues that have been stirred around. My prayer is that for the good of the Hapkido community this matter can be brought to a good end. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: "Bruce Sims" Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 14:39:30 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: More weapons stuff Dear Michael: "...I could be wrong on this but a question for the board, how many of you have recieved a seperate belt or "weapons ranking" from your organization? And if so how long did the certification take?...." As a counter-point to the idea of a "weapons Seminar," GM Myung (WHF) tended to align instruction in a weapon with particular BB ranks. The time in grade apparently was of such a length that one was expected to master both the theoretical applications of the weapon as well as the weapon itself. In this fashion, for instance, the three years time in grade to be eligible for the 2nd BB would include not only becoming accomplished with the soh bong but also learning the location of and exploitation of the pressure points of the human body. In like manner the four years time in grade to be eligible for 3rd BB allowed the candidate enough time to become accomplished with the dan bong but also learn the location of and exploitation of the strike points. Having learned the pressure points and strike points, the thrusting biomechanic of the soh bong and the striking/trapping capabilities of the dan bong, the five years preparatory to being eligible for 4th Dan allows time to absorb the cane techniques with its unique lever/snaring techniques as well as the attendent techniques executed from a position of disadvantage. Things continue to progress in this fashion through sword, staff and knife to 6th BB. Having said this, however, I am at a loss to understand how one can tease out only those techniques for (say) dan bong without first setting the stage with the soh bong thrusting techniques or generalizing to the cane, let alone offer some sort of certification suggestive of mastery. What would prevent someone from giving seminars on professional wrestling or "combat" training, and offer certification, legitimized by simply appending the word "Korean" to the title? Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: RDNHJMS@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:23:42 EST Subject: the_dojang: Taking the fued to the mat <> I don't think that would ever happen. But if it did, I would not miss it for anything in the world. V/R, Rick Nabors ------------------------------ From: "michael tomlinson" Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 22:52:08 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Weapons Training I totally agree with Ray in the concept that there is definately a place and need for weapons training to occur and I see nothing wrong with this at all, and would like to practice this more also,, again,,, the problem I have is the "certification" tag that is on quite a few of these organizations flyers etc.. it is almost as if you can't get people to come for just good hard training,, marketing wise,, you have to offer them some sort of greedy self fullfilling accolade like "certification" to get them to get off of the couch and move there bodies.. if nothing is in it for them then forget it.. if someone told me that they were "certified" to teach me belt, cane, sword, and dan bong,, I would have to laugh and then decline to train with them. I once recieved a certificate of appoinment from Master Whalen after my 3rd dan test,, now I had no idea he was going to give me this document and I was humbled and at awe that he gave it to me,, it still hangs in a very nice frame in my house, and always will. He told me that I was one of only a couple that he had ever given one of these documents to, (again I am humbled by this). Does this mean I am certified? Yes, it means I am certified to train and sweat more then my students,, it means I am certified to set a positive example but not back away from the truth, it means that I am certified do a hundred times more of anything that I ask my students to do, it means that I am certified to always lead from the mat and not from the lobby, it means that I will never sell out Hapkido or people like Master Whalen, Master Rick Nabors or Doju Nim Ji Han Jae,, that's all it means, and I can't sell it to anyone else! Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Richard Hackworth" Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 17:42:4 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: For Dojang Digest Universal Martial Arts Symposium To be held in Cali, Colombia April 18, 19, 20, 2002. Symposium Topic: Ki In Hapkido Symposium Events: Ki In Hapkido Seminars, Hapkido Dan Rank Exam, Special Awards Ceremony. Sponsored by the FONDO MIXTO. Co-hosted by the Korea Hapkido Federation http://khf_hapkido.tripod.com and the National Hapkido Association www.nhahapkido.com . Event coordinator: Master Gerardo Nunez at gerarkido@hotmail.com Master of Ceremonies: Master Fabian Duque Featured Seminars: Ki Healing with Grandmaster Mi Yi Ki Development with Grandmaster Richard Hackworth Ki Application In Hapkido Techniques with Grandmaster Seok Kyu Lee ------------------------------ From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 18:57:08 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hello In a message dated 1/16/2002 11:54:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > I would like to introduce myself to the people on this list. Welcome to the list, Loretta! Sharon ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 16:22:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: bowing Seattle Post-Intelligencer http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/54083_judo11.shtml Take a bow, federal judge tells Bellevue judo champ Friday, January 11, 2002 By Sam Skolnik A federal judge ruled yesterday that Leilani Akiyama, a 14-year-old Bellevue judo champion, must bow before sanctioned matches. U.S. District Judge Robert Lasnik decided against Akiyama's claim that ceremonial bowing to the judo mat and a picture of the Japanese martial art's founder violated her civil rights. Akiyama, a national and international judo champ with Olympic hopes, had already lost three times in rulings by court-ordered arbitrators. The case has lasted more than five years, and it might not be over. The family's attorney, Mark Fleming, said they might take the case to the 9th Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. After her initial complaint was removed from King County Superior Court, Akiyama, her older brother James and one other student filed suit in 1997 in federal court against three U.S. judo organizations and the International Judo Federation. Forced bowing to inanimate objects, they claim, is a religious act and violated federal and state discrimination laws. Arbitrators ruled against them on three occasions, but two of her claims were left alive: that the practice violated the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964, which disallows unfair denials of access to justice in public venues, as well as the Washington Law Against Discrimination. The defendants asked that those claims be thrown out, and Lasnik agreed, concluding in his 13-page opinion that to find in favor of the plaintiffs, at a minimum, any discrimination that occurred would have had to have been purposeful or intentional, like racial segregation. Dirk Ehlert, an attorney for the judo groups, said the ruling "pretty much confirms what we've been saying ... (The Akiyamas' claims) were not based on religious principles, but on cultural or philosophical differences." John Holm, the Akiyamas' stepfather and judo coach, has said the Akiyamas' mother, Mariko, is a Buddhist and doesn't want her children to be forced to practice the rituals of Shinto, an ancient Japanese religion. Leilani Akiyama has been training for seven years, and has won 14 national and three international championships, according to Holm. She also competes as a freshman on the Newport High School varsity boys wrestling team. She has her sights set on Olympic gold. But now, because she lost the court battle, the injunction allowing Leilani to compete without bowing beforehand has been lifted. She felt forced to bow in one recent international competition, Holm has said, but by and large she used the injunction to decline performing the ritual. No one in the Akiyama family could be reached, and it is unclear what she'll do in important competitions coming up this year. "She has to decide whether she wants to bow out of defending her national championship, no pun intended," said Fleming, her attorney. ------------------------------ From: KodanjaClay@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:47:20 EST Subject: the_dojang: Wrong <> Mr. Tomlinson, This is not the same. My comments were my opinion, and still are. They pertained and still do to a) the education of said individual b) the fact that I disagree with his theories, and why. Mr. Tomlinson, that is my Constitutional Right, to voice my opinion. However, what occured with me was that Mr. Whalen took it upon himself to speak about me to my seniors. In my mind, this was a malicious attempt to harm my martial arts career. Further, you should have read everything I indicated the first time. Basically, I said that it wasn't important enough to bring here. I hope that finally I make it clear, because apparently some of you either do not read everything, or do not comprehend what you read, my issue is NOT that Dr. Hackworth or Hal Whalen have words. I for one do not give two hairs. What I do care about, is the apparent lack of ability to handle a situation oneself as opposed to attempting to bring the whole Hapkido community into the situation. Both Ray and Dr. Hackworth have point blank said, Ray here and Dr. Hackworth verbally, let's get together and see. The mat does not lie. This I can agree with. As I just told Mr. Whalen in an email, I have enough of my own problems, do not try and involve me. When two men have issues, two men need to be men and solve the situation. Now, I will not comment further on this topic. If you do not understand by now, what I think and what my position is, you simply won't "get it". I think that perhaps there are more important issues to consider, than gossip? If not, let me know because I am on the wrong mailing list. ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:48:06 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Clay and friend fued From: KodanjaClay@aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2002 23:26:31 EST Subject: the_dojang: Feud Ray, <> Were you a party to the conversation? The WHOLE conversation? Whoever sent it to you, is irrelevant. Hal Whalen ADMITTED to sending out this email. The sad thing is, this all began from Dr. Hackworth asking Hal to reign in one of his students. I know this for a fact, as I had words with the same student. Frank, Why don't you get your facts straight instead of writing mis truths. Your friend Dr. Hackworth asked Hal to reign in Me, for a question I asked not even directed at him! Isn't this censorship? I think we still have a first amendment ,don't we? I asked a simple question on another forum, about the "american "KHF website ,if it was authorized as there was a visa credit card offer and a "win $10,000" dollar pop up add on it. Some students asked me about it and I didnt have an answer , so I asked a question and had someone turn it into a personal attack by me!! what it was was an attack towards us for whatever reason. But the subsequent e-mails and threats revealed the people for what they really are. thinking about not posting anymore..... Hapki, Jack ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 19:49:33 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V9 #17 Frank wrote:<>>> Good post, can you follow your advice to the rest of us? Jack ------------------------------ From: Beungood@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:03:04 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Clay confused? <<>>>>>>cut>>>>>. Frank, Are you ok? Your statement on what "someone at the KHF headquarters informed me that Master Whalen said some intresting things about me while he was there." confuses me. On another list you and your friends were bashing him because he didnt attend a history lecture that he was never invited to and for not visiting the KHF. Am I missing something? I was with him in Korea and we never visited the KHF and I have never heard him mention your name until the I recieved your cute e-mail after we arrived home. As far as talk about selling rank I can remember (actually have a copy) a comment being made about us sipping cold ones in a redlight district and greasing a koreans palms and picking up certification. I know what you mean about having a bad taste in your mouth... Yours in hapkido Jack ------------------------------ From: KodanjaClay@aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:18:56 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Weapons Certification << I kind of have a feeling that this weapon certification is something that has been schemed up by certain American organizations for whatever reason,, mostly economic ones in my opinion.>> Mr. Tomlinson, After serious consideration, I think that perhaps you might be right. If you give me Ji Han Jae's phone number, I'll call him and ask if that was his intent when he held his weapons certification trainings for juniors. (Did I mention that several Korean sources have indicated to me that they had classes like this with Ji Han Jae?) Also, Kukkiwon has trainings in Taekwondo for Instructor Certifications. Would you like also to tell them they are wrong? My point is that this is ludicrous. No one said you have to attend anything or even like what is being presented, but is it really necessary to criticise everyone and everything? Isn't that counterproductive? EVERY organization offers clinics. Not only does it help keep people interested, it helps to make sure that instructors still train. And as far as certification goes, while the training is available to everyone, it does not mean that non-instructors will be certified instructors. Let's use some common sense please. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 20:57:08 PST Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Weapons Certification > After serious consideration, I think that perhaps you might be right. If you > give me Ji Han Jae's phone number, I'll call him and ask if that was his > intent when he held his weapons certification trainings for juniors. (Did I > mention that several Korean sources have indicated to me that they had > classes like this with Ji Han Jae?) Tell me more. I've never heard of Gm Ji doing this. He just called me today, but before I read this or I could have asked. But I'll be seeing him soon... I'm not saying he wouldn't, just that I haven't heard of him doing it. > Also, Kukkiwon has trainings in Taekwondo > for Instructor Certifications. Would you like also to tell them they are > wrong? I'd say that this is a bit different. The classes are a week long, you must be a 4th Dan (minimum), many (most?) don't pass and it is more of a check to make sure your forms and techniques are standardized. Now again, I personally don't have a problem with what was advertised. But it seems, to me anyway, that you've selected poor examples to make your point. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 21:11:45 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V9 #20 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/ Remember 9-11!