From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V9 #21 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 17 Jan 2002 Vol 09 : Num 021 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Weapons Certification the_dojang: Re: Hello the_dojang: Poobah the_dojang: obvious-ly the_dojang: Weapons Instructor Certification... the_dojang: RE: Another tradition? the_dojang: Weapon Certification the_dojang: . ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. 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To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:52:30 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Weapons Certification In a message dated 1/16/2002 11:54:34 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << I could be wrong on this but a question for the board, how many of you have recieved a seperate belt or "weapons ranking" from your organization? >> I have a friend in Colorado that is Shotokan and based in Colorado Springs and since Shotokan doesn't offer weapons training in their curriculum ... the instructor is teaching it as a side class for those brown belt and above who want to learn it. They pay extra for the classes and do receive certificates in it at different levels of training. But about Hapkido I don't know. I know in my school you learn the weapons as you progress in rank level ... it is part of the curriculum and you don't receive a separate certificate other than the one given for your rank. And you don't pay extra for it. Illona ------------------------------ From: MissIllona@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 00:58:13 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Hello <<... I would like to introduce myself to the people on this list. >> Welcome Loretta ! You will like it here ! Many wonderful people here to talk and listen to ! :-) Have fun ! Illona ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 01:11:25 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Poobah Ray writes: > Please, either Ray or Grand Poohbah of the Internet... :) Sorry Ray, I just have this habit called respect that is hard to lose:) Sincerely, Rudy ------------------------------ From: "rich hodder" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:16:03 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: obvious-ly Dear Mr. Lee, uh Brice, oops Bruce, :-), Drat. Dear Mr. Sims, In many cases, when the obvious is over looked, disagreements appear. But thank you for agreeing with my statements, sort of, in a backhanded sort of way. I am honored. Rick, oops, Rich (obviously, I can't type this morning) :^) see ya in MS _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ------------------------------ From: Brian Myers Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:56:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Weapons Instructor Certification... EVERY organization offers clinics. Not only does it help keep people interested, it helps to make sure that instructors still train. And as far as certification goes, while the training is available to everyone, it does not mean that non-instructors will be certified instructors. Let's use some common sense please. This is where the rub comes... Many organizations do teach weapons as part of the "normal" Dan curriculum (ATA being one of them). However , in the case of the ATA, what you learn is only the very basics (basic strikes, blocks, and a form for demonstration during Dan testing). In many cases these same organizations then offer clinics and seminars on a particular weapon which lasts for only a day, mabey two days, and only covers the basics plus mabey an hour of "advanced" use. Those who PAY their two bits and attend then are issued some type of "certification certificate". In the case of the ATA this certification entitles the bearer to instruct that weapon, nevermind that they may still be only a beginner with the weapon. Yes, I agree that we need to follow common sense. But it is difficult to "enforce" common sense when a large organization "enables" so many to find dubious ways to make money. I personally hold a certifcation in the Bahng Mahng Ee (escrima stick) from the ATA. From the day I recieved it I understood that I really knew little about the weapon and needed much more instruction and practice. Unfortunately most local ATA instructors cannot take me much past the knowledge I already have. That is why I chose to frame my certificate, hang it in my living room, and refuse to "teach" anyone. That certificate serves as a reminder to me of just how little I really know, but to many it would be a "license" to begin teaching techniques they don't even understand themselves. Yours in the Martial Spirit, Brian Myers ------------------------------ From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 07:49:58 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: Another tradition? Dear Folks: I suppose that an arguement could be made that I have just WAY too much time on my hands. I am intrigued, however, by the coincidence of comments regarding organizational standing running concurrently with posts concerning seminars providing certification in weapons training. Perhaps it is only my own value system intervening here, but it seems unmistakably clear to me that both conditions serve together to demonstrate that we routinely construct and maintain the very (paper) prison that we regularly report that we want out of. On the one hand I read one post or another that state that the paper side of things is essentially a contrived system recognition which can be readily purchased through the right channels at the stipulated time. Well and good. But, on the other hand I also read post after post in which people labor like scholars regarding the authenticity, veracity and appropriateness of whose paper is more authoritative than another persons'. I am quite a ways from being an authority on Korean traditions, however, to date, I have not been able to document any such pre-occupation with paper/certification prior to the Japanese occupation. Whatismore, such arguements concerning organizational affiliation, standing and leadership seem rife in the Japanese systems. How is it that Korea, so devastated by Japanese Occupation for over 50 years, and continuing deep emnity for the Japanese people, should produce MA/MT practitioners so keen on imitating a Japanese system? As I continue my reading I find repeated references to a Korean traditional system in which students were educated in MT to such a level as they showed competence and promise. Using their skills either for self-defense or competition required no paper.As a service in the role of soldier or policeman would have required some sort of exam. But there were no belt ranks, "masters", "grandmasters" or "supreme grand masters;" or multi-colored uniforms; no certifications, licenses. And let me take this one step farther. The Japanese on the other hand went through a period beginning in the 1600-s of garish costumes, lineage, romantic notions of samurai traditions and organized ryu which some would say continues to this day. But even this is not the worst of it. As my research goes on and I delve ever deeper into the development of Korean traditions I am finding fewer and fewer individuals who have even the most remote idea of the forces that shaped the development of these KMT. Instead, that same energy is poured out in venues such as this as people jockey with one another to champion the personality du jour as though the organizations such as the KHA, KHF etc really care as long as they get their money and can advertise large memberships and authentic association to someone like Choi, Yong Sul. How very, very Japanese. How very, very American. How very, very sad that while this paper chase is going on, the origins and history of our traditions are slipping away into obscurity. Best Wishes, Bruce ------------------------------ From: mctague@att.net Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:40:30 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Weapon Certification I wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion for what it's worth. 1) Other disciplines have adopted certifications. Doctors, lawyers, academics, consultants, business people, engineers, accountants: you name it, they have certifications. By the logic of some people on the list, they would never go to a brain surgeon for brain surgery - they'd much rather go to a general practioner because the GP is uncertified. 2) Many organizations that have certifications teach it as an ancillary part of the curriculm. For instance, the two organizations that I know that offer certification in the walking cane do not have it as a requirement for regular testing proceedures up through the first couple of dans. The certification becomes a "bonus" add-on to their teaching skills. Having a certification in something means nothing more than having additional training above and beyond other practioners that qualifies them to teach (or practice) in that they are certified. 3) I think the major problem people should have with certifications should be quality control, not that they exist. Many certifications I have seen on the internet are dubious at best, being offered by organizations that look to be "mcdojangs". The kukiwon's instructor certification program, for instance, offers quality control through its high standards, testing of applicants, and the limitations it puts in place. With other certifications, it really depends on the way its instructed. A weekend seminar for some of us on the list may be enough to become proficient enough in the weapon as to be certified to teach it because we've amassed enough knowledge to intergrate the instruction into what we already know. On the other hand, a newbie might not make the link between empty hand and weapons techniques such that they can build upon their knowledge base. Again, it becomes imperative on both the instructor and the student to gauge the quality control on the certification as to determine its worth it or not. I imagine that there are certificate programs out there that have significant quality controls in place as to prevent just anyone from buying the video tapes and attending an hour long seminar and getting certified. 4) I am hard pressed to find a problem with bringing in other martial arts styles and integrating them with the one you're studying. I find the "fundamentalists" who want to freeze a martial art and reject all other influences miss the point. Martial arts are about adaption to changing conditions. Your opponent will not always be static. Your opponent will not always fight using the exact same style and techniques you studied. One of the major advances Bruce Lee made through Jeet Kune Do was this flexibility in martial arts to look at other systems and styles and to examine what works and what doesn't. Many martial art styles were founded because the founders found the previous style too limiting and unadaptive to then current conditions. Joel McTague ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 7:42:16 PST Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V9 #21 ******************************* It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/ Remember 9-11!