From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V9 #22 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thur, 17 Jan 2002 Vol 09 : Num 022 In this issue: the_dojang: Hapkido Chun Do Kwan the_dojang: Hapkido Tournaments? Master's Tournament the_dojang: cerification the_dojang: Weapon certification the_dojang: pressures points and meredians the_dojang: books the_dojang: Re: Weapon Certification the_dojang: Certification the_dojang: Big change ========================================================================= The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. 800 members strong! Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to the Korean Martial Arts. Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael Choi" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:58:11 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Chun Do Kwan For the record: 1. Hapkido Chun Do Kwan was founded 33 years ago by Master Yu, Chun-hee. Hapkido Chun Do Kwan has members throughout the world including US, Mexico (I think), Spain, and France. 2. Master Yu, Chun-hee was with the Class No. 2 in the Sung Moo Kwan (which probably also included Master Kim, Nam-jae, but I'm not sure). Class No.1 includes Masters Bong Soo Han, Kwang Sik Myung, Oh Se Lim, Hwang Duk Kyu. 3. Master Yu is a direct student of Grandmaster Ji Han-jae. I have personally met Grandmaster Ji where he acknowledged the personal relationship he has with Master Yu. (I personally have viewed Grandmaster Ji's dan logs and have seen Master Yu's record from 1st through 7th Dan.) 4. Master Yu received all of his dan certification up to 7th Dan from Grandmaster Ji Han-jae. I believe he has been promoted to a higher dan rank through KHF. 5. Master Yu was appointed Chairman of the KHF Referee Committee in 2001. 6. Master Hal Whalen is a registered member of Hapkido Chun Do Kwan. Master Yu personally recognizes Master Whalen as one of his disciples and as his representative in Massachusetts. Master Won Kil-sung is another disciple of Master Yu and he is Master Yu's representative in New York. ------------------------------ From: hogwldfltr@cs.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 10:56:15 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Hapkido Tournaments? Master's Tournament > From: Ray Terry > Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2002 8:02:01 PST > Subject: the_dojang: The Masters Cup Championships > > The Masters Cup Championships > > Traditional Martial Arts Tournament > Hapkido - TaeKwon Do - Tang Soo Do - Soo Bahk Do - Gum Do - Tae Kyun - > Karate > > Sunday, February 17, 2002 > > Pennsauken High School, just off Rt. 73 in Pennsauken, N.J. > Registration will begin promptly at 8:00 AM on Feb 17th. > Hosted by Scott Yates. > > Call 856-719-1411 at MacKenzie's Karate for more information. > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Hello Ray, How does one have a Hapkido tournament without broken bones? I've discussed this here in Tucson and the concensus at the school is that it isn't feasible. I'd like to know more. Best regards, Lee Fisk Tucson, AZ (Kup 3, HKD, Kup 1 TKD) ------------------------------ From: "michael tomlinson" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:12:25 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: cerification Joel writes: 1) Other disciplines have adopted certifications. Doctors, lawyers, academics, consultants, business people, engineers, accountants: you name it, they have certifications. By the logic of some people on the list, they would never go to a brain surgeon for brain surgery - they'd much rather go to a general practioner because the GP is uncertified.>> Would you go to a brain surgeon that got his neurological "certification" during a one weekend ,, learn all you can about the human brain and then be certified to cut on them? I think you are missing the point. I love weapons training and practice but don't tell me that you can offer me certification to teach belt, dan bong, and cane in one or two days at a seminar,, I know and you know this is impossible to actually do. It takes many years to master these weapons whether the "consumer" believes it or not. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ From: "Dennis McHenry" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 11:07:38 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Weapon certification I know that the International TKD Association, under Dr. James Binko, offer a separate curriculum for weapons training and certification. You start off at white belt and earn a black belt in Korean weapons. This is completely separate from his regular TKD program. It is also not just a weekend seminar. Later, Mac ------------------------------ From: c <24wide@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:12:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: pressures points and meredians Has anyone read the two books by Earle Montaigue "Encyclopedia of Dim Mak". Any info on them and the Author would be helpful. Thanks Chris ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 13:18:16 PST Subject: the_dojang: books Forwarded message: Three book opportunities. First, AVAILABLE FREE. The Fulbright Commission in Korea last fall published the "Korea Fulbright Review, 2001." Called "A palette of research done by and experiences of Fulbrighters in Korea" it ranges from serious research by Fulbright senior scholars and American Fulbright graduate students in Korean studies to viewpoint and experience essays of their year in provincial secondary schools by Fulbright English Teaching Assistants. This 60-pp. review is available at no charge to anyone who wishes one in any country. If you want a copy, please email me directly at hhu@fulbright.or.kr. Please include your preferred mailing address TYPED IN ADDRESS FORMAT so I can print it out and paste it on the envelope. Second, many of you are aware that my father, Horace G. Underwood, has published his memoirs, and many people have asked me about acquiring a copy, as Yonsei University Press has not made it available through Amazon. I have gotten some copies on consignment from the university press office if anyone wishes one. The book is "Korea in War, Revolution and Peace: The Recollections of Horace G. Underwood," edited and annotated by Michael J. Devine. The Yonsei Press cost is W20,000, or about $16. I can mail it to the U.S. for $4. If anyone in the U.S. will email me directly at hhu@fulbright.or.kr and send me a check for $20, I'll send a copy. (Postage varies for other countries - email me and I'll find out.) Finally, last October I mentioned to the Korean Studies listserv that I had a list of books on Korean literature in translation that I was seeking to sell, and asked if anyone wished a copy of the list. I was very gratified by the response, as over 50 people asked for the list, and I passed on over 800 volumes to people and institutions who wanted books on Korea. I was inspired by my experience and by those who asked if I had any more books to dig out the rest of what I had in deep storage and create a second and final list of duplicates and excess volumes. This time the list includes more books in history and politics than in literature, as well as a good sprinkling of books in Korean. Once again, I hope to be able to sell some of them to interested individuals and scholars of Korean studies. (This will be the last such list; I do not plan to have a never-ending "going-out-of-business" sale, and after this I have no more books I'm willing to part with.) There are about 400 volumes which I have entered in a book/price list. The list is a Word document, a searchable Table, of 350 KB. I certainly do not want to fill up people's mailboxes, so the list is neither attached nor pasted. Rather, if you are interested in acquiring books on Korea or even just looking at a large list of books, please email me directly at hhu@fulbright.or.kr and I will send you the list as an attachment. Thank you. Horace H. Underwood hhu@fulbright.or.kr ------------------------------ From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:35:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Weapon Certification My two cents..... In a message dated 01/17/2002 10:12:24 AM EST, the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << From: mctague@att.net Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 14:40:30 +0000 Subject: the_dojang: Weapon Certification I wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion for what it's worth. 1) Other disciplines have adopted certifications. Doctors, lawyers, academics, consultants, business people, engineers, accountants: you name it, they have certifications. By the logic of some people on the list, they would never go to a brain surgeon for brain surgery -- they'd much rather go to a general practitioner because the GP is uncertified.>> True, but a GP doesn't go to a weekend seminar and become qualified to become a Brain Surgeon. As it has been pointed out, four or five hours expose to a weapon does not make one an expert, or evenly mildly proficient, let alone confer the ability to teach said weapon. If I was to take a seminar on Tibetan Gopher Throwing, that does not confer upon me the ability to teach and use these TGT techniques. In short, a certificate is a piece of paper that said you showed up and slapped down X number of $$s to learn some techniques. That's it.... >> 2) Many organizations that have certifications teach it as an ancillary part of the curriculum. For instance, the two organizations that I know that offer certification in the walking cane do not have it as a requirement for regular testing procedures up through the first couple of dans. The certification becomes a "bonus" add-on to their teaching skills. Having a certification in something means nothing more than having additional training above and beyond other practitioners that qualifies them to teach (or practice) in that they are certified.<< I maybe mistaken, but it sounds like you describing a continual class that teaches the cane instead of a weekend seminar. If the class is continual, and the student learns the cane over a period of months and years, then the certification you speak of makes sense. Yet, you mention that cane isn't required for the first levels of Dan rank. Does that mean that the Cane is required at higher levels? Or is there a requirement to learn a weapon? >>3) I think the major problem people should have with certifications should be quality control, not that they exist. Many certifications I have seen on the Internet are dubious at best, being offered by organizations that look to be "mcdojangs". The kukiwon's instructor certification program, for instance, offers quality control through its high standards, testing of applicants, and the limitations it puts in place. With other certifications, it really depends on the way its instructed. A weekend seminar for some of us on the list may be enough to become proficient enough in the weapon as to be certified to teach it because we've amassed enough knowledge to integrate the instruction into what we already know. On the other hand, a newbie might not make the link between empty hand and weapons techniques such that they can build upon their knowledge base. Again, it becomes imperative on both the instructor and the student to gauge the quality control on the certification as to determine its worth it or not. I imagine that there are certificate programs out there that have significant quality controls in place as to prevent just anyone from buying the video tapes and attending an hour long seminar and getting certified.< I have seen programs that boiled down to "Get the tapes, send us a copy of you doing the requirements and $$$, and we'll grade you." That is a waste of time and money. One of the things that make me cringe is the "18 months and you're a Black Belt!" programs. In the Art I considered my primary, it's more like two and a half to three years of dedicated training. Weapons training should be integrated into the program, not added on as an afterthought. While an experienced MA will get more out of a seminar then a newbie, it doesn't confer anything special then the exposure to some new techniques. By their very nature, there is not a huge amount of techniques that can be covered in a short period of time. >> 4) I am hard pressed to find a problem with bringing in other martial arts styles and integrating them with the one you're studying. I find the "fundamentalists" who want to freeze a martial art and reject all other influences miss the point. Martial arts are about adaptation to changing conditions. Your opponent will not always be static. Your opponent will not always fight using the exact same style and techniques you studied. One of the major advances Bruce Lee made through Jeet Kune Do was this flexibility in martial arts to look at other systems and styles and to examine what works and what doesn't. Many martial art styles were founded because the founders found the previous style too limiting and unadaptive to then current conditions.<< It becomes survial of the fittest -- whatever styles do not adapt to meet the challenges will die out. But every MA must have a basis to build on. There will come a point where all the student's training and skill blends together. Bruce Lee was the first to look outside his MA for new ideas, but I feel he rejected everything that didn't fall into his narrow view. Lee was looking for a striped down, streetfighting, combat MA, with little else to get in the way. He rejected Forms becase he felt they were confining. Forms do serve a purpose, but Lee wasn't intrested in that part of the MAs. And becase of his untimely death, most of JKD is opened to interpretation by those who have followed. Even those who trained directly with Lee cannot know everything he was think about. People are not the same -- they had different opinions, memories, interests and thought processes. Two people trained in the exact same art will teach that art differently -- different techniques, different emphisis, and different drills. For example, TKD has a single base that has branched out in many different directions. Some had adapted some outside influences, while others haven't. Some had pushed the tournament side of the art, to the point where it is more sport then art. Others still hold onto the art side of TKD, concentrating more on self defence and forms. Are either one wrong in their view? Depends on who you ask. As to the resistance to outside MA influences. Some resist change because of cultural bias, others because they don't want to go through the hassle of learning new stuff. OTOH, some people take things from other styles and don't acknowledge it. Since when was the Nunchucks a Korean Weapon?? Some TDK school teach it, claiming it is a Korean weapon. So, unless the student actually spends more then a weekend learning, practicing and exploring a weapon, teaching that weapon to anyone is a waste of time and trouble. Also running around trying to gather techniques here and there in a haphazard manner is also not a good idea. < Joel McTague >> Craig R. ------------------------------ From: "Rudy Timmerman" Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 17:47:37 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Certification Joel writes: > I think the major problem people should have with > certifications should be quality control Hello Joel: You have some very keen observations. IMHO, certification IS about quality control. This is why, in my school, a Black Belt is NOT qualified to teach. I have a totally separate and very comprehensive element of training that is reserved for people who want to teach martial arts. I also require my Black Belts to be certified as referees (if they wish to judge at tournaments). Being a Black Belt neither makes you a judge, nor does it make you a teacher. Some Black Belts (despite being excellent practitioners) can NEVER become a teacher, because it takes a special talent some will never attain. The negative members of this forum may think that I have just "invented" these standards to squeeze another buck out of my students, but this is not so. While I do charge for the "costs" of this training (books,CPR and First-Aid expenses etc.), it is not an avenue of income. My only intent is to upgrade quality in the hope this will promote safety, and raise the bar somewhat. Unfortunately, many organizations use certification for monetary gain with total disregard to quality. In such cases, certification is not certification, it is more like "recognition for attendance". About the only thing I can suggest here is: "Buyer Beware!". > Martial arts are about adaption to changing conditions. > Your opponent will not always be static. In my early days of competition (1960-1975), the only tournaments available were run by Japanese orgs. and the few Korean stylists around just could not get a point for kicking to the head for love nor money. A solid reverse punch was about the only way to get a point. We even had to abandon our traditional uniforms and patches to have a chance to win. Similarly, at last year's "Arnold" Battle of Columbus, my students were warned for punching to the head????? It seems that (in the TKD events) punching to the head was not allowed. To me, the pendulum has swung to far the other way just to encourage more kicking. In the early days of PKA, there was a mimimum kicking rule in full contact matches. Today, most contact fighters rely on wrestling or grappling techniques, few use kicks. That there is evolution in martial arts is without question, it can't be stopped. Indeed, it is ludicrous to think that the ancient Korean warriors would not use every trick known to them. What is more important is to ensure that any "new" techniques are compatible with your basics. I chuckle when I see how some practitioners try to use circular techniques out of a wide stance, and then wonder why it does not work well for them and their legs get all tangled up. > Many martial art styles were founded > because the founders found the previous style too > limiting and unadaptive to then current conditions. That, and the political crap such as revoking rank and/or charging exhorbitant fees, is the same reason why there are now so many associations. At least, that is the way I see it. For a "way of life" that is supposedly founded on the wonderful tenets (that many now seem to have abandoned), it is a shame we cannot even get along. Sincerely Rudy. ------------------------------ From: Ray Terry Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2002 16:04:47 PST Subject: the_dojang: Big change All should have recently received a msg like this in your mailbox. This is the final issue in the old format and from the old hosting addr. New issues will come in the new format. The new email addr for posts to the_dojang is: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Do not send email to the old addr as it will just bounce back. See you on the other side. Thanks. Ray ====================================================================== Forwarded message: The The_Dojang mailing list has just undergone a big change. It is running on a new mailing list package called "Mailman". This will hopefully solve a lot of problems that administering this list has presented. How does this affect you? 1) Mail intended for the whole list should be sent to: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net. 2) You have been given an arbitrary password to prevent others from unsubscribing you without your knowledge. It will be mailed to you in a separate email, which you may have already received. 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US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org To unsubscribe from the_dojang-digest send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY (top line, left justified) of a "plain text" e-mail addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Fight Spam! Join CAUCE! == http://www.cauce.org/ Remember 9-11!