To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------ The_Dojang Digest mailing list ------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. 850 members strong! Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The premier internet discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re:Masters.. (ABurrese@aol.com) 2. Grand father (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #41 - 7 msgs (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 4. Re: Good Company (Stan Lim) 5. Cheree (Dizzy S.) 6. Re: Good Company (Creed71963@aol.com) 7. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #41 - 7 msgs (Creed71963@aol.com) 8. New WTF Vice President Appointed (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: ABurrese@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 12:11:56 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Masters.. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I've heard the "You have to promote someone to master (5th dan) to be a grandmaster" too. In fact, I read it somewhere, same book had the titles associated with the rank. (Kwanjangnim was quoted as being a 7th dan who had promoted someone to 4th or 5th, I forget and don't have the book, just looked at it at the store) Author of said book told me he was right and the Koreans I knew were using their own language wrong when I asked him about it. We have to remember that the Asian titles do not translate directly into "master," "grandmaster," or "great grandmaster" or anything else Americans use. It gets sort of funny with people demanding to be called such and such. (Same thing goes on everywhere, look at all the academics who insist on being called Dr. or such.) Reminds me of "The Alamo" with John Wayne. These aren't exact quotes, but close. The Duke, playing Davey Crockett meets up with Col. Travis, who was in charge of the small band of Texans that held down the Alamo buying time for Sam Houston to get the larger Army together. Anyway, the Duke calls Travis, "Travis." The reply was, "I'm a colonel, and will be called as such." John Wayne answered, "Well, I'm a colonel too, and it would sound pretty stupid with the two of us going colonel, colonel back and forth. So you call me Crockett, and I'll call you Travis." I am all for showing respect, and I use titles at times too. But when people get upset, or demand that you call them by a certain title, I sort of laugh. Why? Because isn't it a bit silly? If you are comfortable with who you are, what you can do, etc., you don't need to demand people call you something or demand respect. Can't you hold a deep amount of respect for someone, and show that respect even though you don't call that individual by a certain title. (One that person may have earned and deserves.) Can't you have very little respect for someone, but still call the person by a title, even though as you say it, you are thinking, this person doesn't deserve the title? Isn't worrying over a title sort of silly in the long run? Isn't it sort of silly in the short run too? This comes from the book "Martial Arts America: A Western Approach To Eastern Arts" by Bob Orlando. (Highly recommended): When I think of masters, a few individuals come to mind. But when they are asked what rank or degree they have, most of them simply reply, "student." Their credentials are often little more than remarks like, "I study with so-and-so right now," (usually someone most of us have never heard of) and "I studied with him (another little known) for so-many years." What should impress us are not ranks and titles, but the fact that real masters are ever students of the art. After decades in the art, these teachers still seek to learn. Teachers like that have no need to proclaim their greatness; their skills do it for them. Bob Orlando, who wrote that above could easily demand to be called grandmaster or many other things higher. He is extremely skilled, and a very good teacher. He goes by "Bob." Besides being an excellent martial artist, he is an extremely caring person, and a good man. I can't wait till this summer when I'll get to learn more from him. We are two of a number of instructors that will be putting on demos and teaching hour long classes during a weekend in July. Point is, we get too caught up with titles and such, and it stems from wanting to feel important, a natural feeling that we all desire. (feeling important ranks higher on many studies than money for what will make employees like their jobs better) It would be ideal if years in the martial arts taught "inner self-respect, self-confidence, and self-esteem." Some do learn this through the martial arts, and those are the people who don't demand anything, because they know who they are, what they can do, and it doesn't bother them what others say or think. Problem is, this is so hard to do sometimes, but the best we can do is at least try and stay on the path. Time to get to work. Yours in Training, Alain Burrese www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:00:59 -0500 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Grand father Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray writes: > One will hear that their Master's > Master is their Grandmaster, just as your father's father is your > grandfather. For the more sensitive martial artists, the title Grand Master may not be a title they would seek or even like to have. As Ray suggests, it can be perceived as Grand Father. This often means that #1, you are getting older than you would like, #2, your Grand Master is deceased (you would never be so disrespectful to take a title of the same rank your teacher has). In any case, it is most likely a very lonely position. Not much fun if you ask me, and as far as profitability is concerned -- I think those who would profit from that title, would find another way to squeeze a buck out of you without that title. To paint all Grand Masters with the same brush is like telling me that all Professors are frauds, just because some martial artists use that title to denote their position. As far as "tradition is concerned", I think Bruce has some legitimate history on the use of titles; however, how far back do we go? For most people practicing martial arts today, history is as recent as the late 50s, and there were some who used these titles way back then. IMHO, it is not the title that is the problem, the problem lies with some of the people using these titles. I firmly believe that there are at least as many "Masters", Black Belts of any rank, and Instructors who use these positions or titles in a less than stellar way. Does that mean that all Masters or teachers are frauds. Say!!!!! Maybe THAT is why the people on this list are percieved as frauds by a certain moderator:) Perhaps Ray should limit the participants on this list to under Black Belts to rid his list of the fakes and frauds:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 13:54:29 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #41 - 7 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 1/27/2002 2:15:57 AM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Someone wrote: > >"....Just curious... I thought a GrandMaster was someone who had promoted a > >student to the rank of Master (5th Dan)???......" Another answered: > >I'm sorry that you were misinformed. Mr. Terry writes: > Well, no, that is somewhat typical. One will hear that their Master's > Master is their Grandmaster, just as your father's father is your > grandfather. I have to agree with Mr. Terry. Even though we all know that the title of Grandmaster has been abused, there are also reputable practitioners wearing it. In my assoc., the title was not used until the first students reached "Master" level at 6th degree. It was their decision to use the title to honor their "father" and recognize his position over them that led to its use, rather than a self-conferred title. My GM refers to the students has personally trained as his sons and daughters; their students as his grandchildren. He stresses "family style." Sharon --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 11:16:16 -0800 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Stan Lim Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Good Company Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >In a message dated 1/23/2002 6:55:13 PM Central Standard Time, >the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > > > The Dojang Digest has become known as a haven for fakes, frauds and > > >people of the lowest character within the Korean Martial Arts on the > > >internet. As one who never takes things at face value, I did a search on Ask.com, Google, Alta Visa, Excite, Lycos and Yahoo. Sadly, none of these premier internet directories list us as the holder of above said title :-( Lycos didn't like my spelling and Ask Jeeves politely suggested that I be more specific by trying "salmon" and not "fish" :-) Best regards, Stan (back for a short visit from Singapore) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Dizzy S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:00:53 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Cheree Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Cheree wrote: <<<>>> Thanks, Cheree :o) Do you have anymore info on him or his dojang? You can email me privately with info. Thanks in advance :o) Tang Soo! (oops .... habit hehehehe) Dizzy white belt TKD (5th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:38:49 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Good Company Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 01/27/2002 5:18:01 AM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << In a message dated 1/23/2002 6:55:13 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > The > >Dojang Digest has become known as a haven for fakes, frauds and > >people of the lowest character within the Korean Martial Arts on the > >internet. >> If I wasn't so involved in perfecting the most leathal form of martial arts ever, SW FL Tibetian Gopher Throwing, I would take great offence at being called a fake, fraud and a person of the lowest character...... Seriously, I think someone has an ego problem, and it's not someone on this mailing list...... CraigR --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 15:44:29 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #41 - 7 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 01/27/2002 5:18:01 AM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << "....Just curious... I thought a GrandMaster was someone who had promoted a student to the rank of Master (5th Dan)???......" I'm sorry that you were misinformed. The term "grandmaster" is a contrived title utilized by many commercial interests to suggest a level of position and prestige which may or may not truely be in evidence. The same self-inflating nimrods who stress their status are also the ones who make an issue of such things to other people. The intent of this exercise is to make sure that money continues to flow in a single well-defined direction, and that power and authority also flow back in a single unchallenged direction. The Korean Martial traditions never had such a title. In fact, the Japanese tradtions, likewise had no such title, opting instead to identify various levels of competence and authority through a system of certifications and licenses. However, as OS Funakoshi borrowed the ranking practice from his friend OS Kano, and since a number of Korean ex-pats who trained in Japanese arts never knew anything but the ranking system, it was part and parcel of what those ex-pats brought back to Korea after WW II.. In the United States, despite all our grandstanding about an egalitarian society, people love to parade around with an ersatz title hoping to get the respect from people with a title what their personalities or behaviors couldn't earn on their own. If you will accept a word of advice, perhaps you would be better served by only judiously using a title, and never when compelled. Best Wishes, Bruce >> What about the term "Headmaster"? When my instructor compiled his system of Han Guk Mu Sool, he gave himself the rank of 7th Dan and the title of Headmaster. I once afddressed him as grandmaster and he corrected me. Is there really a need for a (suffex)master desiganation, or is it marketing? CraigR --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2002 19:39:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] New WTF Vice President Appointed Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... USTU's Sang Lee Becomes First USTU President to serve as Vice President of World Taekwondo Federation by Chris Condron - U.S. Taekwondo Union (719-578-4632) USTU's Sang Lee Becomes First USTU President to serve as Vice President of World Taekwondo Federation COLORADO SPRINGS, CO. --U.S. Taekwondo President Sang Lee has become the first USTU President to serve as Vice President of the World Taekwondo Federation. The WTF is an international federation consisting of 162 national Taekwondo governing bodies as its members. Following the recognition of the WTF by the International Olympic Committee in 1980, Taekwondo was staged at the Olympics in Seoul in 1988 and in Barcelona in 1992 as demonstration sport. In 1994, at the Paris 103rd IOC Session, Taekwondo was adopted as an official program of the Sydney 2000 Olympics. In 2000, the IOC confirmed Taekwondo as an official program sport of the Athens 2004 Olympics. President of the USTU for the last six years, Lee has led the sport of Taekwondo to Olympic status and beyond. "I welcome the opportunity to serve the Taekwondo athletes of the world in this new role", He said when asked about his new position. "It is a tremendous honor to be named Vice President of the WTF." Lee was one of the top competitors in his home country of Korea. He was a 13-time national champion and one of the best ever in the sport of Taekwondo, which originated in Korea. Lee was National Team coach for 10 consecutive years from 1979-88, the longest of any USTU coach to this day. Lee was the Olympic coach of the very successful 1988 Olympic Taekwondo Team that competed in Seoul, Korea where the women's team finished first and the men's team finished second He owns and operates two successful Taekwondo schools in Colorado Springs. "President Lee's selection as a Vice president of the WTF is a testament to his devotion and contributions both to U.S. Taekwondo and the international Taekwondo community." Said USTU Executive Director, Jay Warwick. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest