Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 06:07:13 -0800 (PST)
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<<---------------   The_Dojang mailing list   --------------->>

Serving the Internet since June 1994.
Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource

The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts.

See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine
for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com

Pil Seung!

Today's Topics:

   1. RE: Master Rim (Creed71963@aol.com)
   2. Changes through the generations (Andrew Pratt)
   3. Flight Attendant self defense (TNTcombatives@aol.com)
   4. Choke Holds (TNTcombatives@aol.com)
   5. Re: Changes through the generations (Ray Terry)
   6. Syngman Rhee (Andrew Pratt)
   7. Re: Original Hapkido (Sun Mu Kwan-USA)
   8. Re: Questions (Carsten Jorgensen)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: Creed71963@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:19:31 EST
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Master Rim
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

>Message: 4
>Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 16:08:26 -0600
>From: "Bruce Sims" <bsims@mailserver.midwesthapkido.com>
>To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
>Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: A little help, please
>Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
>
>Dear Ray:

<Irrelevant parts of Bruce's post snipped>

>
>*********************
>
>[[Pg. 24 identifies a Master Rim, Jong-bae as chief instructor for Hapkidos'
>founder Choi, Yong Sul for 10 years. Other than Marc Tedeschi and the Rim
>website does anyone authenticate this standing with something other than 
>the fact that folks sat down over coffee once?]]

I passed a copy of this Email on to my Instructor, as he hapens to know 
Master Rim, as one of several unrelated questions regarding KMAs. I received 
his reply tonight. I reposted here in it's entirety:

**********

Dear Craig,

Master Rim was a very close friend and student of the late Master Doju Choi. 
He did serve as the senior instructor for him in Taegu South
Korea. When Master Choi would visit the U.S. he would always make a point to 
visit Master Rim in Baltimore. In fact his last visit was in 1989 the year 
he died. Tell Bruce that I know Master Rim and his top student Master Joe 
Sheya very well and that is the truth. There are many deceptions of the 
truth by those who are trying to promote themselves and organizations. 
Master Rim is not one of them.He is a committed Martial Artist, family man, 
and is deeply religious. He lives a very modeat life style. I think Bruce 
and others may not be happy as they over turn stones seeking the truth only 
to find deception. We should instead focus on training and seeking the truth 
that resides in each of us. Master Choi is the only true founder and 
inventor of Korean Hap Ki Do. The others who have followed under him who 
claim to be the founders are merely incorporating his teachings into their 
own. Let's be honest about it. He is the father they are the sons. My system 
of han guk Mu Sool incorporates several different Korean weapons to include 
the sword knife, cane, fan, rope, spear, broad sword, and stick techniques 
from 10 inches to 6 feet. I have not invented a new style just incorporated 
others teachings into a collective work. I hope that this has helped you in 
your research. Please pass this information on to Bruce.

                          Sincerely, Master Al Gauthier
                                     President of KMARA
                                     WWW.KMARA.ORG

************

Please note that I personally don't think that Bruce was being anything but 
being a healthy Skeptic regarding Master Rim's background, but to edit Master 
Gauthier's post in any way would be a disservice. (Thought I was tempted to 
do so.)

Craig

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Andrew Pratt" <andrewpratt@ircltd.com>
To: "dojang" <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:43:13 +0900
Subject: [The_Dojang] Changes through the generations
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Ali,

You contributed in a recent Dojang Digest:

>
I find it very interesting that the founder of kuk
sool won and his brother GM In Sun Seo both have books
covering geum moo hyung but they are shown quite
different from each other. GM In Sun Seo stances are
much wider and deeper than GM In Hyuk Suh. Also, some
of the techniques in the red book (GM Seo's) are a
little different than the black book (GM Suh's).
<

This sounds very similar to the changes that occurred in Shotokan Karate
when Funakoshi's son took over the reigns. The stances became the low and
long stances we see today. If you look at the old pictures, Funakoshi senior
stood much higher.

There has also been a noticeable change in Aikido. Most of Morihei Ueshiba's
students, including his son and grandson, have changed the stances into
something longer and more static. If, however, you examine the few clips and
pictures of Ueshiba actually practising then it doesn't take long to see
that Ueshiba rarely maintained one formal stance.

I think what I am driving at is that the difference you have noticed
indicates teaching methodologies and attempts to systemise an art that is
still in development and changing. There is probably also a subtle
difference in understanding of the techniques between the two masters which
is driving them to emphasise different stances.

Ultimately, when any technique is executed it should flow naturally and
achieve the desired effect. Good stance can help this but in the panic of
the moment you will probably find that after you have executed the technique
you will examine your stance and think, 'what the h*** am I doing standing
like this?!'

Hope that helps,

Andrew

--__--__--

Message: 3
From: TNTcombatives@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:55:45 EST
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Flight Attendant self defense
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Check with Mr. Phil Messina or Elizabeth Kennedy at Modernwarrior.com.  I 
know they have been doing flight fight training for a while.

Others are doing the training as well, but I don't recommend them.  Bus/train 
scenarios are a real chagi to do.

Later,
Mark.

--__--__--

Message: 4
From: TNTcombatives@aol.com
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:16:56 EST
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Choke Holds
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Mr. Kelly
       One of the best sources for 'choke hold' stuff is Mr. Robert Bragg.  
He is the survival skills director for Washington State criminal justice 
training academy.  He teaches an LVNR (lateral vascular neck restraint) 
course to law enforcement throughout the NW. The site is located at:  
http://www.wa.gov/cjt/ 
       As far as it being 'illegal', I know of no law that prohibits it.  
Yes, many agencies have forbidden or restricted its use, but the majority 
that I know of allow it.  It falls in the highest categories of force 
continuums, usually in the serious physical control section right along with 
K-9 bite, impact weapon, focused blows, electrical stun etc.
       I teach various choke methods, as well as head control techniques in 
my own police combatives programs.  Students are required to bring their own 
agency force continuums.  I have not seen chokes or constrictions banned in 
any of them.  My own department allows it.  It is a necessary technique to 
know, and a very effective tool for officers to have when faced with the 
decision to use that level of force to restrain/dominate a threat.
       If you are justified in using deadly force against a threat, changing 
from the side pressure on neck (LVNR/sleeper) to an arm across the front of 
the neck is ok.  The knee in the back is mostly used for control and pinning 
while subject is being handcuffed.  It is not a knee strike to the back, but 
a placement of the knee.  Again, striking (focused blows) are permitted if 
the threats resistance is ominous and is enough to overcome officer 
efforts...a strike may seem reasonable and necessary at the time.  

Mark Gajdostik
  

<<<Dear PoliceDo Readers:

Greetings from Southern California.  If you could be of assistance, 
especially, those of you who teach Law Enforcement Officers, I need available 

information on the illegal coke hold now banned by Law Enforcement, forearm 
across the larynx, knee in the back.  I need to know the ramifications of 
such a hold and the damage it can do.  Thank you very much for your kind 
assistance.

Shihan Hugh Kelley >>>

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Changes through the generations
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 21:26:01 PST
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> Ultimately, when any technique is executed it should flow naturally and
> achieve the desired effect. Good stance can help this but in the panic of
> the moment you will probably find that after you have executed the technique
> you will examine your stance and think, 'what the h*** am I doing standing
> like this?!'

There you go being practical again...   :)

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: "Andrew Pratt" <andrewpratt@ircltd.com>
To: "dojang" <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 14:45:07 +0900
Subject: [The_Dojang] Syngman Rhee
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Terry asked in a recent Dojang Digest whether Syngman Rhee, former (and
little lamented) president and independence activist (for which there is
probably some grudging admiration) was a member of the royal family.

No he was not. Indeed, he was so opposed to the royal family that he was a
democratic campaigner before the Japanese annexed the country in 1910. He
spent time in prison for his troubles before seeking exile during the
Japanese period. He still had his hatred of the royal family when he was
president and refused to allow the return of leading members of the royal
family from Japan (where they had been kept as 'guests' by the Japanese
Imperialists).

Andrew

--__--__--

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 22:11:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA <hankido2000@yahoo.com>
To: Dojang digest <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Original Hapkido
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

<<My master told me there are two kind of techniques,
the ones you train
for 3 years on a daily basis and the ones you train
for 10 years on a daily basis.>>

One of my friends runs a gym in Busan and he told me
the very same thing. Before opening his own gym, he
spent four years living in his master's gym in Seoul
and teaching there as well. Prior to opening his own
gym, he had to attend an instructors certification
course in Yong-In as well. I think here in the US, its
somewhat easy to open your own gym without much
approval from ones own organization/federation. Just
up the money and there you go.




=====
International HKD Federation-Sun Mu Kwan USA

www.ushankido.org
Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail 
http://mail.yahoo.com

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: "Carsten Jorgensen" <hwarangdo@email.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 20:36:54 +0800
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Questions
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Me:
>>Who is convinced there were no styles in Korea who used the Hapkido name until ~ 1960 when GM Kang Moon-Ji first used the name in Taegu. <<
Ray:
>>Ummm, no one??? :) Gm Ji coined that name in 1959. <<

I've always heard is as GM Ji taught Yawara until 1961.
Anyway, who was the first (GM Ueshiba) really doesn't matter because GM Kang only used the name for a short time (GM Choi Yong Sul told him that "he trained Yawara, not Aikido") and I agree that it's because of GM Ji and all his work and all of his students that the Hapkido name has stuck. 

Ray:
>>Should we just agree to disagree? :)  <<
Sure, I agree we disagree :-)
The thing is, this is the very base of all the confusion. If you believe ONE person created everything in the Korean arts, then the history, the differences in techniques, syllabuses etc and all the other stuff get weird and confusing. But when you realize that there were many styles using a generic name from the beginning it all makes sense.

BTW, I've received a couple of private emails that I'm not talking about GM Ji a lot. There's no disrespect in that, it's simply that we're from different lineages and there is very little GM Ji influence in my style (Hwarang Do in case anyone were in doubt ;-) , just as there is little GM Lee influence in GM Ji's style.
I'm not trying to "take anything away" from GM Ji's huge influence, and GM Lee does not claim any rank in Hapkido, even though he could promote himself as one of the most senior masters. But we're talking history and there is no denying GM Lee's influence on the Korean MA's.

Me:
>> And that's because Hapkido never was - and never will be - *A* style. 
>From the very beginning (~1960) when people started using the Hapkido name in Korea, "Hapkido" was used as a generic term for very different styles.  <<
Ray:
>> Well, no, it simply fractured after being created by Gm Ji. <<

Well, this is the root of all the confusion as I see it.

Ray:
>> HRD is one of those groups that splinter off from Yawara and HKD.  <<
I've written many LONG posts on this, please expound :-)

>> Just as Gm Ji enhanced Gm Choi's Yawara to create HKD. <<
The style "Songmu Kwan" Hapkido (Kwan meaning style), which was an enhancement from GM Choi's Yawara.

Carsten Jorgensen
cj@hwarangdo.dk
Copenhagen, Denmark


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