Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:46:41 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #84 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Sorry... (Ray Terry) 2. choke hold (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 3. more Japan-Korea (Ray Terry) 4. Re:Confounding Issues (Bruce Sims) 5. Re: Master Rim stuff (Bruce Sims) 6. best way for building up legs? (stefano marzoli) 7. Re: Here we go - again? (Bruce Sims) 8. RE: KSW (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 8:46:09 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Sorry... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> But we're talking history and there is no denying GM Lee's influence on >> the Korean MA's. > >I received a very different impression in talks with the older Masters >still in Korea, but .?.?. Sorry, that was uncalled for and I really did not need to go there, true or not. Sorry... :( Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 11:06:11 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] choke hold Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Shihan Hugh Kelly was asking about choke holds by the police. My response follows... What I remember of the history of the choke hold ban (such as it is) was that the choke hold was largely accepted as a very safe method of restraining someone because of the studies by Dr. E. (Eichi) Karl Koiwai of the use of chokes in judo matches. A lot of great articles on this, including Dr. Koiwai's, can be found on Neil Ohlenkamp's great judo site at: http://judoinfo.com/chokes1.htm Other good articles on the web are at: http://bjj.org/articles/971006-choke/ http://www.bestjudo.com/article1.shtml http://www.ijf.org/commission/ed-rp-01.html The main problem with the judo choke is precisely how Mr. Kelly describes it: > forearm across the larynx, knee in the back. If performed as a blood choke, the opinion of most experts seems to be that a choke is usually safe for most people under the age of 40. A forearm across the larynx is how an untrained person would perform a choke, making it an air choke and risking crushing the victim's larynx with his action (a potential fatality). The problem then was insufficient training on the part of most police, rather than a problem with the technique itself. When someone with little training attempts a blood choke, they can easily end up executing an air choke instead. Since a blood choke can put someone out in under 10 seconds, and an air choke takes a minute or so, the choker can become convinced that he is just not applying the choke hard enough, and actually crush the windpipe trying to get the blood choke by brute force. That is why some police do not advocate the choke. A single arm wing choke still seems quite popular though. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 8:55:48 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] more Japan-Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net fyi... Forwarding > Have a look at the "Japan ruled Korea with a rod of Discipline, not Iron" > web site also known as the "Controversies over the History of Japan-Korea > Relations. Its authors, Miko Sugimoto, Sadao Ogihara and Kazuho Baba, claim > that: > > "... in Korea, the suffrage was not allowed to the residents in Korea, > including the Japanese but to those who lived in Japan were allowed to > participate in politics, both Koreans and Japanese alike. In 1932, Pak Yong > Hyo was nominated into the House of Lords, and in 1932 and 1937, Park Shung > Kong was elected twice into the House of Commons from the Tokyo district. > Moreover seven Koreans were nominated into the House of Lords in 1945 and > eighteen seats were given in the House of Commons from Korea in the next > general election - though this never crystallized because the war ended > prior." > > http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~korea-su/korea-su/e.korea/korea-problem/The_Amer > ican_governance_of_the_Philippines.html > > and > > "In 1945, the election law was amended and seats for eighteen members to be > elected from Korea were allotted, but it never crystallized due to the loss > of World War 2. In 1932, a Korean Senator, Park Yong Hyo was commissioned to > the House of Lords. After then several Korean natives were also commissioned > to that House." > > http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/~korea-su/korea-su/e.korea/korea-problem/japan%20 > ruied.html > > A collection of diaries and memoirs by Kim Ki-su (???), Kim Hong-jip (???) > and Park Yong-hyo (???), three special envoys to Japan in the last years of > Choson is also available in "Shushinsa Kirok" (?????, Records of Ambassadors > to Japan) 1 vol. a medium- octavo size. 693p. 1958. > > With best regards, > > LEONID A. PETROV > Division of Pacific and Asian History > Research School of Pacific and Asian Studies > The Australian National University > WWW: http://north-korea.narod.ru --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:27:32 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Confounding Issues Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Carsten and Ray: "...The thing is, this is the very base of all the confusion. If you believe ONE person created everything in the Korean arts, then the history, the differences in techniques, syllabuses etc and all the other stuff get weird and confusing. But when you realize that there were many styles using a generic name from the beginning it all makes sense....." In fairness to Hapkido practitioners (specifically) and KMA practitioners in general I think this is a bit simplistic. Looking back over the last few years I see quite a few more confounding issues. Let me list a few. 1.) Language: The greater number of Hapkido and KMA practitioners including myself do not speak Korean. Perhaps there great amounts of answers to our questions found in KL resources, but until we can read and write and understand Korean for ourselves we are prisoners of what others tell us. Hell, I have read cases where people take Korean nationals to task for what they are saying in their own language! What hope is there for people like me. 2.) Custom Certainly a great deal is made of Korean traditions and customs founded in their Taoist, Confucian and Buddhist influences. We Americans have little to reference these things and again must rely on mostly Korean nationals. In turn, many of these Korean nationals have their own agenda and use language and customs as foils for pressing their particular positions. 3.) Commerce >From all that I can tell from my research, prior to the 1900-s money was not the huge motivating factor that it has become. I suppose this has to do with the size of the memberships and the revenues from yearly memberships of such large organizations. Claims, assertions, affiliations, memberships and authority all rise and fall with the tides of cash which flow first one way and then another. There was a time when Combat Hapkido was "in". Now its slowly falling out of favor. Who takes over next? 4.) Politics One theme that I remember over and over as first I started my career in MA was that training in the arts was to focus on a persons' ability to subdue their passions and strenthen ones' character to perform a greater good for their society. Where this went wrong, I don't know. I put the responsibility on the introduction of the ranking system to Korean arts from Japan, but thats just my personal opinion. It does, however, make it hard to honor the wishes of various authority figures when they seek to pass on their intentions to the next generation. By way of illustration, and with sincere thanks to Craig for the information, the latest case for me is the matter of Master Rim and Choi Yong Sul. But I have seen cases where even when the wishes of the leadership are explicitly stated (and sometimes in writing) as in the case of the succesion of S Kondo in the Daito-ryu AJJ tradition, people still question and splinter-off. If I had to categorize these issues under a single label, my term for it would be "wiggle-room." It has been my personal experience that as long as a person has enough space to squirm around with a "thats not really what I said" or "thats what I said, but thats not what was meant" we are going to play Hell trying to keep some semblance of order in the Hapkido arts. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:47:04 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Master Rim stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig and Al: My most sincere thanks for contributing your information regarding Master Rim and GM Choi. Perhaps way too much is made of how a mantle gets passed in the MA and specifically in the Korean arts. If such a thing can be said to occur in Hapkido I think it is of utmost importance that we get the clearest picture of this as possible. I also thank Craig for giving my inquiry the benefit of the doubt and seeing it for the honest question that it was. Thanks. For myself, I am finding that it serves me well to divide the Hapkido arts into five reasonably well-defined lines. These are not perfect by any means but it seems to help me in keeping things straight. 1.) Choi, Yong Sul: the original Daito-ryu (aka "yawara", "hapki yu sool") art as brought to Korea by Korean ex-pats. In this case I use GM Chois' name more as a label to identify those arts which were brought back by Choi and any other practioners after the end of the Second WW. 2.) Ji, Han Jae: The original art of Choi Yong Sul modified to include Taek Kyon material (aka "Sang Mu Kwan", "Sin Mu Hapkido"). This category would also include those schools and styles which progress from GM Kim who was also instrumental in introducing Taek Kyon material and was, for a short time GM Ji's confederate. 3.) In Sun Seo: A hybred representation of the greater Chinese influence to the Korean grappling arts (aka "kuk sool", "kuk sool won" to include many of the similar techniques found in the Japanese influences. 4.) Lee, Joo Bang:: A hybred representation of the greater Chinese influence to the Korean grappling arts (aka "Hwa Rang Do") 5.) Han Pul Stylistically all of what we have today, with the exception of Han Pul seems to descend from these four sources. I don't know about the politics, but this seems to be the best way to organize things for me. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 12:14:38 -0500 From: stefano marzoli To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] best way for building up legs? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read with some interest about the stance (high and low). I was wondering if there are ways to strenghten the legs. Occasionally, my instructor would have us hold our stances for a duration. It is a pain but most of the time I enjoy the challenge of not trying to move an inch. Is this a good method or not, bear in mind I am not criticizng anything. I am simply curious about what other martial students have done/learned, etc. Stefano --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 10:44:13 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Here we go - again? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Carsten, Richard and Ray: My friends, this is exactly what I was talking about in my previous post! Can't we stop this for even a little while? ".....I just wanted to commend Master Chris Garland of the Executive Martial Arts Academy in Nashville, TN for his promotion to 6th Dan in Hapkido. Master Garland has been a good friend and great Hapkidoin for some time now. He is probably the rightful heir apparent to the SinMoo Hapkido system......" Why make this statement? Has GM Ji actual said as much? Has GM Ji identified ANYONE as his heir apparent? To tell you the truth, if I were him, I would identify someone while he is still alive and then he could be around to put out the fires and speak for himself against all doubters. Of, course, there I go again, using logic. But, Richard, you are not helping things by making some grand statement about some relative unknown from the US. The Hapkido arts are a helluva lot bigger than the US, my friend. "....I assume you're talking about the history chart, it's not open for discussion if there were a Hwarang organisation during the Silla and Koryo dynasties :-)...." Thank, Gawd. Since no original documentation exists regarding Chinese and Korean culture prior to the Mongols we can pretty much say anything we want about what went on in China and Korea before 1200 ad. Personally I hold to the belief that the images on the tombs in Manchuria are aliens teaching tribesmen party games, but thats just me. :-) "....Second part, I can assure you that the founder of Daito Ryu is the Japanese pronunciation of Chinese characters meaning "3 Hwarang from Silla" (thanks to my friends at the Danish Roppokai for showing me the actual characters)......" OK, fine. If it does, what exactly does that mean? The Japanese are not going to own that they got DRAJJ, or ju-jutsu, or swordsmanship or metalurgy from the Koreans. The Koreans, for their part, are not going to admit they have been habitually remiss and derelict in their duties to maintain the integrity of their martial traditions. What it does say is that the comment I made about language and culture being bent to support various positions rings pretty true. BTW: Thanks for the historic references. Just one other thing--- kinda off to one side and this is addr to Carsten. Maybe I am reading this all wrong, but as I read-up on the workings of the HWARANGDO organization I get this sense that its not so much a Hapkido style or kwan but a kind of corps that one joins with GM Lee at the head. Most of the KMA/KMT schools I know are affiliated with various organizations, but the HRD people seem to have this particularly closed approach and I was wondering if you had any comments on that? Am I misreading things? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2002 09:38:19 -0800 (PST) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: KSW Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the information on KSW. I was just pointing out the differences I noticed between the two books in the stances and techniques. Also, there is a little differences between the kicking motions. A while ago, there was an article about Dr. He Young Kimm in TKD Times regarding the differences between GM Suh and GM Seo's books. My friend just told me this last night. Does anyone remember this article? ===== International HKD Federation-Sun Mu Kwan USA www.ushankido.org Got something to say? Say it better with Yahoo! Video Mail http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! 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