Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 11:36:59 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #89 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Weapons (Klaas Barends) 2. Ancient History (Carsten Jorgensen) 3. Muye Dobo Tongji (pepito perez) 4. Re: Sorry... (Carsten Jorgensen) 5. young looking (Ray Terry) 6. Stuff along the way (J. R. West) 7. Questions from a beginner (Steverts@aol.com) 8. Where can I purchase the Hapkido Bible (Tom Kennelly) 9. Hapkido and weapons (Tom Kennelly) 10. Re: Doju title (Michael Choi) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: 18 Feb 2002 07:18:19 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > I teach the following weapons (With rank): > > Baton (1st Dan) > Tactical Knife (2nd Dan) > Bo Staff (3rd Dan) > Cane (4th Dan) > Belt/Necktie (5th Dan) > Dan Bong-Short Stick (5th Dan) > I am currently leaning Sword techniques (Kenjutsu and Fencing both) and I > will eventually include this knowledge into my curriculum (Most likely at > the 6th Dan level) I can keep my student busy with sword techniques from their red belt up to their 6th dan. Where do you get the time to learn them the other stuff as well?? -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:26:10 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ancient History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: "....I assume you're talking about the history chart, it's not open for discussion if there were a Hwarang organisation during the Silla and Koryo dynasties :-)...." Bruce: >>Thank, Gawd. Since no original documentation exists regarding Chinese and Korean culture prior to the Mongols we can pretty much say anything we want about what went on in China and Korea before 1200 ad. Personally I hold to the belief that the images on the tombs in Manchuria are aliens teaching tribesmen party games, but thats just me. :-) << You're mixing several different things now. The Chinese have many sources which are more than 2000 years old, documenting their culture, the people on the Korean peninsula are mentioned in many of these sources. The tomb paintings has nothing to do with the Hwarang, just if there was MA in Korea during the Three Kingdoms Period. But the Koguryo paintings actually does show martial arts, you can compare them with the paintings found in "Chinese" toombs. If you look you'll also see that the fighters are actually wearing the same clothes in all the pictures (just a loincloth :-) Two of the paintings which are often used as "martial arts paintings" are actually 'giants' supporting the roof and walls of the tombs with their hands, not fighters though. But I said that the Silla Hwarang organisation was not open for discussion :-) There are enough sources to establish that the organisation did excist. It's true that none of the original Silla texts have survived until today and that therefore all the references are from the Koryo dynasty (AD 918-1392) or later. Of course it's impossible to know how true or accurate the information is because eventhough they are based on much older sources, they were still written long after the events took place. The oldest, Samguk Sagi dates back to 1125 AD, the Haedong Kosung Chon (or Lives of Eminent Korean Monks) was compiled in 1215 and the Samguk Yusa about 70 years later. However, the information which surface from the sources definitely helps clarify the Hwarang organization by comparative analytical studies of the material. I think the information on the Hwarang organization shows that the material is consistant through out the sources. The stuff above is copied from http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang.htm which I wrote back when I was in Korean studies. It used to be the largest collection (in any language) of Hwarang quotes, lot’s of sources for you Bruce. Anyway, there is actually an original Silla Hwarang inscription on the Ch'onchon-ri Rock between Kyongju and Ulsan (also on the page above). Me: "....Second part, I can assure you that the founder of Daito Ryu is the Japanese pronunciation of Chinese characters meaning "3 Hwarang from Silla" (thanks to my friends at the Danish Roppokai for showing me the actual characters)......" Bruce: >> OK, fine. If it does, what exactly does that mean? The Japanese are not going to own that (…) << I don't know. I didn't write it, and it has nothing to do with the discussion. The characters are there but I really don't care if people from the Korean peninsula did bring martial arts to "Japan". I replied because Ray posted that the statement detracted from the modern history later in the chart. Back to modern history: Bruce: >> Maybe I am reading this all wrong, but as I read-up on the workings of the HWARANGDO organization I get this sense that its not so much a Hapkido style or kwan but a kind of corps that one joins with GM Lee at the head. Most of the KMA/KMT schools I know are affiliated with various organizations, but the HRD people seem to have this particularly closed approach and I was wondering if you had any comments on that? Am I misreading things? << Now, you're being ridiculous. There are open Hwarang Do tournaments and seminars every year and lot's of Hwarang Do people goes to tournaments, seminars and what have you. Why the h*** do you see Hwarang Do as a corps rather than a style??? Or are you talking Silla now? What organisations do you see Hwarang Do being a member of? "Great Grandmaster Smiths United American Organisation of Korean Styles"? Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "pepito perez" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 13:50:26 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Muye Dobo Tongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I have aquired the "Muye Dobo Tongji" and I think that it´s great!! I have been waiting for it to be translated for a long time. It gives a great insight in what was going on with ancient koren martial arts 300 years ago. I have not yet bought the videos on the subject.Are they good? _________________________________________________________________ Con MSN Hotmail súmese al servicio de correo electrónico más grande del mundo. http://www.hotmail.com/ES --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:30:33 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Sorry... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: >> But we're talking history and there is no denying GM Lee's influence on the Korean MA's. Ray: >>I received a very different impression in talks with the older Masters still in Korea, but .?.?. >> Ray: >>Sorry, that was uncalled for and I really did not need to go there, true or not. Sorry... :( << No problem. Of course GM Lee was one of the very first people to open a martial art school in Korea, and he has been a huge influence on the other Korean styles. Any Korean master who were active in Korea before GM Lee went to America (1972) knows who he is. If they say they don't they either lie, suffer from bad memory, or were low ranking at the time. Everybody else knows his influence. This is a clear statement which you can either believe or not believe, investigate or not investigate, GM Lee's influence on the Korean arts is still a fact. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 7:02:30 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] young looking Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Of course GM Lee was one of the very first people to open a martial art > school in Korea... Wow! He sure does hold his age well. I would have guessed him to only be ~65 years old (plus or minus). Given the above he must be 80 or so... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 09:26:44 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Stuff along the way Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net First, on the subject of incorrect belts, I was sent a monogrammed belt by a Korean friend of mine that did that type of work for a living (besides being a phenomenal YuDo player), and when I looked at it, instead of my name "West", it had the Korean for the direction west. Twenty years later I still have this belt although I have tossed away several others, but the oddity makes it worth something to me. As far as teaching weapons is concerned, I don't let anyone under black belt touch a weapon as it is an extension of the body's basic motion, and since black belt means , to me anyway, control over basic motion, I feel that adding to the mix only increases problems for the student, plus it gives them something to look forward to and work towards. I teach a sword form and cane at 1st dan, rope at 2nd, fan and short stick at 3rd and sword fighting techniques and pole at 4th. With regards to the student with one kidney, I have the same problem, losing a kidney shortly after attaining 1st dan, and I can honestly say that I have not done ANYTHING differently over the last 35 years other than stay away from Cokes and other caramel colored drinks (it seems that the coloring clogs up the suspension within the kidney). Although I don't do near as many falls as I did when I was younger, my "sole surviving" kidney never seemed to be an issue at all. J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Steverts@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:24:37 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions from a beginner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Folks I've been studying Kuk Sul Hapkido for about five months (one of the best things I've ever done for myself) and have been lurking here for a month or two. Because of my age ...48 and my profession...musician...I need to be careful with my hands ... I'm very concerned with proper warm up and stretching. Even so, it seems like every few weeks I'm pulling something, hurting a knee or throwing my back out. The master at my school is very helpful in showing me certain stretches, etc., but there is a language problem which makes it challenging to discuss these issues, I was wondering if any of you folks would care to offer any advice, tips, books to read, web sites to visit, etc. I feel kind of silly going to class and having to "lay out" during some exercises, but often the pace just gets too much for me and I have to. Thank you Steve BTW....what's the difference between Hapkido and Kuk Sul Hapkido? --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: "dojang" Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:30:46 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Where can I purchase the Hapkido Bible Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Where can I purchase this book? I have already tried Ryukyu books but their web site had the wrong price and they would not sell me the book for the advertised price. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: "dojang" Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:38:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido and weapons Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Why teach weapons that may not be available when you need to defend yourself? I can see that knife and cane training would be valuable because they can be carried but sword? Obviously I am taking a view that is narrowly focused on self defense and may be missing the larger picture. (Please handle this as a request for information rather than a attack on what is taught) --__--__-- Message: 10 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 14:24:30 -0500 From: "Michael Choi" Organization: Lycos Mail (http://mail.lycos.com:80) Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Doju title Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just thought that I add my two cents... I remember seeing the original hanja/kanji/Chinese characters for Doju in an old 1960's booklet of the original Korea Hapkido Association that Grandmaster Ji Han-jae showed me. It was the first page with a big photo of Founder Choi Yong-sool with his name written in hanja (Chinese) and on the left of the name, it said DoJu in hanja. (Also in the book were the signatures of politicans in support of the Association, including Korean Presidents Kim Dae-jung and Kim Yong-Sam.) Do is the character meaning "Way" or "Path." Ju is the character meaning "Lord" or "Ruler." DoJu does not literally mean "Founder." In order to avoid controversy, I try to always to refer to Grandmaster Ji Han-jae as the Sin Moo Hapkido Doju. There's already too much debate as who was the first Hapkido Doju and who is the current Doju. But there is only one Sin Moo Hapkido and there is only one Doju of Sin Moo Hapkido. When I address Grandmaster Ji, I call him Dojunim. If I wanted to add his name, I should say Ji Han-jae Dojunim or Ji Dojunim. But I always address him as Dojunim. Sometimes in conversation I might mention another Dojunim, for example Chunji Hapkido Doju Han Young Choi. I would differentiate the two by referring to one as Choi Dojunim and the other as Ji Dojunim. I never simply refer to them as Doju as I am most definitely their junior. Ji Dojunim mentioned to me that there are two who have a complete understanding of his teachings. They are Master Yung T. Freda and a unnamed psychologist/psychiatrist. Interestingly enough, in another instant, Dojunim mentioned out of the thousands of pupils he had, he has yet to have an ideal apprentice. IMO, that's a pity --for the knowledge and depth of character that he has, my hope is that he would impart all of knowledge and his system to at least one worthy person. (I read an interesting article in an Aikido magazine of how O' Sensei Ueshiba certified at least one individual to 10th Dan --I was really impressed with this disciple. He was with Sensei Ueshiba from the beginning and now faithfully transmits the system, including the philosophies, just as he learned from Ueshiba. I hope Dojunim finds such a person as well.) Sincerely, Michael Choi Check out Cupid School where you will learn from Matchmaker's best and brightest. Good Luck! http://ecard.matchmaker.com/cupid0202/cupid0202.html --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest