Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 05:58:54 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #91 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: HwaRangDo Stuff (Bruce Sims) 2. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #90 - 9 msgs (J. R. West) 3. An updated subject link (Ray Terry) 4. Re: Ji seminar in Colorado (Todd and Debi Deininger) 5. ITF patterns seminar (Ray Terry) 6. Re: More about Hwarangdo (Carsten Jorgensen) 7. Re: various styles of hapkido (what is Hapkido?) (Carsten Jorgensen) 8. RE: Conditioning thoughts (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 15:12:21 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: HwaRangDo Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Carsten: "....You're mixing several different things now. The Chinese have many sources which are more than 2000 years old, documenting their culture, the people on the Korean peninsula are mentioned in many of these sources....." Yes, this was the only point I was wanting to make. The Egyptian tomb paintings which go back another 2000 years to about 2400BC are much more exact which leaves me wondering about the standing of the martial traditions among the Peoples of the Three Kingdoms period. Be that as it may, I wasn't thinking about the existence of the Hwa Rang Do or even MA/MT during the Three Kingdoms period. The issue I was musing over is the ready manner in which people invoke materials which SEEM to support a particular position. In the Chinese traditions, for instance, there are constant citings of obscure mentions of Chuan FA (as such) in poetry and novels prior to the Yuan (Mongol) dynasty. I have seen people readily use this to authenticate the existence of SHAOLIN KUNG FU (sic) and often even to drive home that connection with Bodhidarma. I just think this is an inappropriate applications of that material. "...Now, you're being ridiculous. There are open Hwarang Do tournaments and seminars every year and lot's of Hwarang Do people goes to tournaments, seminars and what have you. >Why the h*** do you see Hwarang Do as a corps rather than a style??? Or are you talking Silla now? >What organisations do you see Hwarang Do being a member of? "Great Grandmaster Smiths United American Organisation of Korean Styles"?...." Ouch. Damn, Carsten, put down that sledgehammer! :-) What I was sharing was a view that I have constructed over a few years and was putting to you as one who is knowlegable regarding HRD. I can't say that I have seen any activities here in the Midwest and thats not for my not having looked around a bit. If there have been open activities advertised in the media such as BLACK BELT or TKD TIMES I suppose I could have missed it. The closest HRD group that I know of is out of Madison Wis. and I can't say that I have heard anything out of them. As I say, the cumulative impression that I get is that the HRD organization seems to keep pretty much to itself. Other than yourself, I don't remember too many HRD people pitching in here, nor on that other Net when I was a member there. I'm open to ideas if you have some suggestions about engaging more HRD folks or for my reaching out to them, for that matter. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J. R. West" To: Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 17:01:45 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #90 - 9 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Happy Presidents Day to the members of the_dojang. > > Especially to Master West... Perhaps the only member old enough to actually > have meet both Presidents Washington and Lincoln! :) > > Ray Terry Ray..Two things you might want to consider: First: You don't get old by being stupid. Second: Remember that in less than two weeks you're going to be at MY place on MY mats, and you must remember 'Chinese restaurant' rule of Karma...."If you order it, you have to eat it". And on why I teach weapons that are not practical self defense items, like sword........Because anything NOT taught is LOST forever, and, right now, it is MY obligation to pass on what was taught to me in the name of HapKiDo, and I always assume that there was a reason for being taught different things, and I choose to always defer to my seniors when it comes to inclusion of material......I that makes any sense, it's probably not my fault....J. R. West www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:01:17 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] An updated subject link Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray..Two things you might want to consider: Ohh, did I mention that I hurt my knee REAL BAD just a moment ago. I may not be able to make it down there afterall... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Todd and Debi Deininger" To: "Dojang Digest" Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Ji seminar in Colorado Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 16:15:55 -0700 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thanks Ray > Contact info: > Sean Bradley > 705 S. Shields St. > Ft. Collins, CO 80521 > 970 310-5500 Correction: > colostateHKD@aol.com Just wondering if Sean's addr is correct. Might it be colostateHKD@aol.com? If not, sorry. It just jumped out at me... Ray Terry --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, policedo@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 18:20:08 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] ITF patterns seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... American Taekwon-Do Federation International, Inc. Patterns Seminar July 20 & 21st, 2002 For: All ranks, Ages 8 & up Hosted By: Nunez's Taekwon-Do Studio, Inc. Featured Instructor: Fabian Nunez Nunez's International Taekwon-Do Studio 2029 East 8th Street, Odessa, Texas 79761 Phone:(915) 335-8783 FAX:(915) 335-9006 http://www.nuneztkd.com nunez@nuneztkd.com Dear Instructors and Students, I would like to personally extend this invitation for you to attend the first American Taekwon-Do Federation International, Inc. patterns seminar. I am excited about offering a seminar that will enable ATFI to unify the technique throughout the United States. Our goal within ATFI is to insure all instructors and students are teaching, learning and executing patterns as instructed by ITF and the founder of Taekwon-Do. Our goal is to ensure ATFI students and instructors alike our technically correct. The technique I will be teaching is from General Choi Hong Hi. I have been fortunate enough to learn my patterns directly from the founder of Taekwon-Do and also assist him over the years with pattern seminars nationally and internationally. If you are an interested TKD practitioner, I urge you to join me and fellow instructors and students across the United States in the first American Taekwon-Do Federation International, Inc. patterns seminar. The seminar will be for all ranks age 8 and up and a banquet is scheduled for Saturday evening. The seminar will not only improve your patterns but the banquet will give you an opportunity to socialize and meet fellow students or instructors, find out what is happening new in TKD, ATFI, the ITF and rekindle friendships from the past. I look forward to seeing you at the seminar for a weekend of training and fellowship. If you have any questions or require more information, contact Nunez's Taekwon-Do, Inc. at the numbers listed or by email. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:33:15 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: More about Hwarangdo Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: >>Of course GM Lee was one of the very first people to open a martial art school in Korea... << Ray attacked thusly: >>Wow! He sure does hold his age well. I would have guessed him to only be ~65 years old (plus or minus). Given the above he must be 80 or so... << Dakin choose to use arguments: >>Now this one is just plain wrong. There were tangsudo, t'aekweondo, yukweonsul, and kongsudo schools before GM Lee, and before that there were kendo and judo schools in Korea during the Japanese Occupation, and before THAT there were the t'aekkyeon schools, and before that there were undoubtedly others, although we can argue about their exact curricula. << That is correct, but I'm still right :-) A lot of people have exaggerated mental pictures of the number of schools in Korea in the 1950ies and early 60ies. The best picture I can think of right now is "if a style has 'HQ' in the Seoul YMCA (not a very big place), how big do you thing the style is?" Same for all the other hard styles, it really wasn't until they received backing from the government that Taekwondo took off. Same for all the other "non-Taekwondo" styles, it wasn't until mid-to-late 60'ies that the number of schools and new styles exploded. When GM Lee opened his school in 1960 there were 10 Dojangs in all of Seoul, including "Taekwondo" and Judo/Yudo. So GM Lee was one of the first people to open a martial art school. He could have opened a school earlier than 1960, but he choose to finish university first (double major). >> Usually you're so careful Carsten -- I've got to imagine that you're just having a very busy day! << Yeah, I'm spending too much time on this. Maybe one more round. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denamrk -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 19:42:08 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: various styles of hapkido (what is Hapkido?) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael: >> I refer to Choi Yong-sool as Hapkido Doju since even the original literature mentioned him as such. << GM Choi's title was Doju-nim, but he didn't start using it until 1968. This was when GM Lee and GM Ji was chosen by President Park to unify the many different styles and lineages under one name, like "Taekwondo" had been unified in 1965. This was also when GM Lee and GM Ji became 8th dan, the highest ranking. BTW, GM Lee's title has been Doju-Nim since the late 60'ies/early 70'ies. >> Grandmaster Lee Joo-bang called his art in Korea Hwarang-kwan Hapkido. Once he came to the US, he switched to Hwarangdo. << Who told you this? The Hwarang Do name was used from 1960-61. From 1961 to 1968 Hwarang Do was used together with the generic term Hapkido. And from 1968 until today only Hwarang Do has been used. So are the 8 years more important than the year before there were any Hapkido styles in Korea, or the 30 years since when GM Lee has had no contact with the styles using the generic Hapkido name? >> Once he came to the US, he switched to Hwarangdo. << Stuff like that used to be difficult to prove wrong back when there was not that much information on the Internet. Now it's getting more and more easy to prove wrong. http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/5th-exhibition.html shows the cover of a tournament program from 1972. The tournament was the 5th National Hwarang Do tournament, the top line reads (in Korean) "12 years founding anniversary" 1972-12 = 1960, the year GM Lee opened his Hwarang Do school in Seoul. If 1972 is too late, and someone thinks they deliberately made the program in 1972 in case someone would be questioning the history 30 years later, you can also look at http://www.hwarangdo.com/Magazines/60s.html. It's not that clear online but on the original photos they are clearly wearing the Hwarang Do patch. All Korean black belt certificates clearly says "Hwa Rang Do", nothing else. GM Lee have many articles from Korean newspapers and magazines showing the same thing. I have about 20 other things, from posters to certificates that proves Hwarang Do was called Hwarang Do in Korea. This is one of those things about Hwarang Do which is not open for discussion :-) >> I recognize that his system is different than Ji Dojunim's system and I respect that. Grandmasters Suh In-hyuk and Seo In-sun teach a different system as well. Grandmaser Han-young Choi teaches another system. I respect them as different systems, but they all of the commonality of Choi Yong-sool Dojunim. They all have the same core, but developed into different systems. << See, once we agree that we're dealing with different styles and different lineages we can discuss differences between the styles. Maybe look for a common core, see how much is Yawara. Maybe even discuss if the core in one style is also the core in the other, or maybe just a subdivision…find lineages... all the interesting stuff. Now we just have to convince all the other people :-) Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark Who is still convinced that Hapkido is, and always have been, a generic term for many different styles. -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2002 07:50:54 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Conditioning thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Steve: "....Because of my age ...48 and my profession...musician...I need to be careful with my hands ... I'm very concerned with proper warm up and stretching. Even so, it seems like every few weeks I'm pulling something, hurting a knee or throwing my back out......" Congratulations on embarking on what could be a very satisfying and challenging area of growth. Please accept a couple of suggestions concerning "proper warm-up and stretching." Most of the people who will provide you guidance regarding warm-ups and stretching will be focusing on what and how you can limber-up your body and prepare it for a robust work-out. Some things which don't get the kind of emphasis that they should include the following. a.) Diet: Working the body in the Hapkido arts can truely drain the body of Calcium, Sodium and Potassium which are of major importance in making sure that the muscles are behaving as they should when you ask them to do something. Along these lines, most MA practitioners have no problem using carbs and caffiene to give themselves that extra energy boost to keep up in class. Finally, water soluble vitamins need to be replenished regularly and often. Now I said all of that to say this-- Make sure you are taking a quality multivitamin each day and one that includes trace elements as well. Even though we humans are pretty much omnivores, our digestive tract is designed primarily for plant fats and proteins. Take the hint and leave off the refined carbohydrates. Think of these as "flashes of energy" where what you really want is a more sustained release of energy that proteins give. b.) Conditioning: If you are "pulling" muscles it sounds like you could use a bit more conditioning. I am not talking weight training or hours of calesthetics. Just a marginal increase to tone up major muscle groups such as stomach/back muscles (sit-ups and leg-lifts) and shoulder/chest/back (push-ups, and pull-ups). As much as I absolutely HATE running, I make time for it 3-4 times a week (about a half-hour each time). c.) Toxins: As valuable as water-soluble vitamins and proteins are for your training you need to make some decisions about alcohol and methyl Xanthines (coffee, tea, colsa and chocolate). If you want that beer or high-ball, fine, but don't be surprised to find that at our age it impacts your performance in training more than you would have guessed. Same goes for the coffee. Now, I am married to a coffee addict (including an altar bearing the STARBUCKS logo on which she lights a candle each morning) so I know that some people are not going to let that go. But do yourself a favor and cut back. I hope some of this might help your training. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest