From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #96 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rayreq@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 06:41:10 -0800 (PST) Status: RO Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: 20:02 (Piotr Bernat) 2. Hyung (Rudy Timmerman) 3. Hankido in Los Angeles (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 4. Dojangs in the RoK (Anthony or Clare Boyd) 5. Re: The nature of Korean Arts (Carsten Jorgensen) 6. Re: HwaRangDo Stuff (Carsten Jorgensen) 7. Re: HRD in Korea ? (Carsten Jorgensen) 8. Re: More about Hwarangdo in Korea (Carsten Jorgensen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Piotr Bernat To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:51:53 +0200 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: 20:02 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Remember where you were on 20:02 20-02 2002, so you > can tell your grandkids! As usual on Wednesday evening - in the dojang, with my students just finishing the first round of sparring... :) Regards -- Piotr Bernat dantaekwondo@lublin.home.pl http://www.taekwondo.prv.pl --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 02:00:43 -0500 From: "Rudy Timmerman" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce writes: > Just a quick follow-up question. Now that you are more-or-less independent > do you stick exclusively to those hyung that you were taught when you were > with your teacher? > > Do you ever "import" Chinese Forms which approximate Kuk Sool biomechanics? > > Praying Mantis, Long Fist, and 18 Lohan supposedly were great contributors > to Korean stylings; do you ever investigate those arts to seek out > similarities with the hyung that you perform? > > Are any of the hyung that you do NOT constructed by GM Seo? > > Are the sword hyung constructed by GM Seo or are those re-interpretations > of some other stylings (Ie. Northern Shaolin saber)? Hey Bruce: I use the forms that were taught to me by GM Pak, and they inlcuded the forms Kuk Sool uses today. I must say that these forms are now a wee bit different than they were back in the 60's, but close enough. KSB forms also include some of the hard style forms similar as you see in TKD or TSD. There was an obvious attempt by GM Pak to teach Yu and Kwan even in forms. Your observation that many of our Hyung seem to have a distinct Chinese flavour is correct. The explanation I was given is that borders between China and Korea shifted somewhat with the fortunes of war. Also the alliances between the two nations had a great impact. BTW, you would look at our hard style forms and probably see a distinct Japanese influence. Kuk Sool, or the old Kuk Sool Won Hap Ki Do if you will, is reported to include the Chinese forms in order to preserve the entire range of martial art techniques that were practiced in Korea. While Kuk Sool, as practiced by WKSA today, does not use the harder style forms, KSB still does. Given the relationship between Korea and Japan, it is a wonder that GM Pak even bothered to include the hard style forms:) Perhaps this is why they were dropped from the later curriculum. As I was informed, the hyung used were not developed by GM Suh or Seo. They were reported to have been around long before, and they were merely preserved by them. In fact, Gum Moo Hyung was reported to have doubled as a folk dance. However, these are observations that I have not investigated. As you know, I appreciate history, but I don't swap training for delving into history. Others on the DD are much better suited for that:) Hope to se you in Jackson, and we can continue the thread. Tom: Thank you, and good luck with your studies. I had hoped my few pennies helped (even though they are Canadian and worth zip these days:) Sincerely, Rudy --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 23:40:45 -0800 (PST) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Hankido in Los Angeles Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For those that are interested in Hankido, Grandmaster Myoung Youn Gun, brother of the late Grandmaster Myong Jae Nam and founder of the International HKD Federation is now offering Hapkido, Hankido, and Hankumdo lessons at his Buena Park studio location. For further information, please email me. ===== International HKD Federation-Sun Mu Kwan USA www.ushankido.org Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" To: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:56:37 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dojangs in the RoK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I had an idea along the lines of what Bruce suggested for making a dojang directory a few years ago. I was very keen on the idea as dojangs seem to be the one business here which doesn't appear and disappear overnight. Then I took a look around and realized the section on TKD alone would denude Canada of trees in the quest for paper to print it all! It's hard to go anywhere in Kyungki province or Seoul without seeing a Taekwondojang. When you see a dojang, perhaps 90% of the time it's TKD. Next most common is Hapkido. A lot of schools have some form of Kumdo listed on their sign and disused, rotting juk-to in a corner somewhere but not a lot of visible instruction. That doesn't much matter as the next most common type of school is Kumdo/Kendo. After all of these schools have been waded through, almost everything else is a surprise to see, if only by virtue of its seeming oddness. Another factor to consider is that Seoul is probably not a martial arts haven. In my experience a lot of interesting stuff is available outside the capitol which is not present within city limits. I have found that Seoul's satellite cities, such as Uijongbu and Bundang have far more diverse selections easily accessible to the residents than Seoul does. My theory is that the teachers go where the leisure time is spent rather than where the work is done. Haidong Gumdo, Teuk-Gong Mu-Sool and Taekkyon (in about that order) are the top threeup and coming styles in terms of school openings and school sightings in my personal travels. Martial arts related schools such as the meditative breathing styles like Dan Hak and Kuk Son Do are spreading like wildfire. Some organizations, such as the Haidong Gumdo Federation provide websites or printed material with all of their legitimately affiliated Korean schools listed with contact names and numbers. Some groups don't. In my nearly five years in South Korea I have seen only one Hwarang-Do school. It was located near Hyehwa, a university district of Seoul. It promised Hwarang Kumdo on the sign but appeared to teach Kendo. By way of comparison I have seen three Aikido schools in Seoul. This doesn't mean that there are more Aikido schools in Korea than there are Hwarang Do schools but it does suggest that there are more Aikido schools in Seoul than there are Hwarang Do schools. Other Korean styles that I hear about but never see signs for are Soo-Bahk Do (formerly TSD), Ssireum (wrestling) and Kuk-kung (archery). As an aside, health clubs, bars and dojangs all seem to be chosen by many due to proximity to some location in the prospective student's life rather than by any inherent quality. Like cars, locals seem to favor Korean or Korean-seeming arts. It is rare but not impossible to come across Wu-Shu schools. These schools frequently offer the Koreanized Taiji which I understand is descended from the Yang style. It is also possible (although I haven't had the opportunity) to find Wu-Shu schools which offer styles like Preying Mantis or Baqua. Suwon is one particular city where this is possible. Aikido is being spread slowly in Seoul and I suppose fellow Digest-mate Andrew Pratt could comment on it's spread elsewhere in the country. Korean versions of kick-boxing styles, most notably Muay Thai are also quite common in this category of dojang. It's not a huge country but it's packed with people and winding streets which are in a constant state of flux. It would be a Herculean task to research and speak with any authority on "Dojangs in Korea." What I have written here is just the sum of my experience. Remember that my time is split between work and the dojangs I attend. I don't wander the streets at night looking for new dojangs. On the surface a lot of towns seem the same but in reality... Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:23:45 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The nature of Korean Arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce: >> What I am wondering is if anyone---- hopefully an objective third party--- has actually done any survey work along these lines. What I am thinking of is some sort of overview of what is being taught, by whom and to whom. << No :-) >> I remember that Stanley Pranin (Ed., AIKIDO JOURNAL) did a directory once of Aikido/Aikijujutsu schools << There is a large commercial directory (in Korean) of Korean Dojangs. Lot's and lot's of schools, but I would guess it has only about 1/3-1/4 of *all* the Korean dojangs. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:15:16 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: HwaRangDo Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce: >> SHAOLIN KUNG FU (sic) and often even to drive home that connection with Bodhidarma. << My old professor read all the original sources on Bodhidarma, no mention of martial arts. >> The closest HRD group that I know of is out of Madison Wis. and I can't say that I have heard anything out of them. << They have some good people out there, I've trained with a couple of them. GM Lee did a seminar there last year. >> Other than yourself, I don't remember too many HRD people pitching in here, nor on that other Net when I was a member there. I'm open to ideas if you have some suggestions about engaging more HRD folks or for my reaching out to them, for that matter. << Well, are there any Hwarang out there on the list? If I wanted to contact Hwarang Do people I'd probably use the Internet? Anyway, there are not that many Hwarang Do black belts (the list is on hwarangdo.com). Everybody picks their own way and some masters chooses to test people quickly and some gives out high ranks. GM Lee does not, and he does not promote people to black belt without them knowing their material. This is kinda limiting to growth since there are A LOT of techniques in HRD. But then again, I like it. >> As I say, the cumulative impression that I get is that the HRD organization seems to keep pretty much to itself. << Heh, let's see. I've been more active on this list than people from Han Pool, Tugong Musul, Kong Jung Moo Sul, Taekkyon, . Does that make them corps of people gathering rather than martial arts? Where do you set the limit, it is a style when there are two people posting here or when Taekwondo Times brings two stories a year about seminars, or does it take 10? Sorry, but I really don't get the logic. BTW, I still can't see what organisations out there you think Hwarang Do should be a member of? Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:17:26 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: HRD in Korea ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: >> A lot of people have exaggerated mental pictures of the number of schools in Korea in the 1950ies and early 60ies. << Ray: >> I think the real point here is that there were some 15 or 20 years (or more) worth of schools by the time Gm JB Lee opened his dojang. That alone, IMHO, disqualifies him from opening one of the first. << Great, you have your HO and I have mine :-) You could make a list of all the Koreans who were teaching before 1960 if you like, I don't know that many, but who knows, maybe there where thousands of secret schools during the Korean War (not). But how about agreeing that "of course GM Lee was one of the first people to open a non-"Taekwondo", non-Judo martial art school in Korea" Which is what we were discussing, I think. >> One another note, just a question (no hidden agenda here), are there currently many (any?) HRD schools in Korea? << I don't know, the last time I was there, there were 4 active schools in Seoul. But I know that at least 2 of them closed down because of the economic crisis. There are many old Hwarang Do masters and instructors who are no longer active and many of them meets regularly in black belt organisations. Quite a few of the larger "Hapkido" organisations, including Chongtong Hapkido, are old Hwarang Do masters who changed the name to the generic Hapkido because it's a lot more known as a martial art in Korean now. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 17:22:52 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: More about Hwarangdo in Korea Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Of course GM Lee was one of the very first people to open a martial art school in Korea... << >> Just wanted to let you know that GM Myong Jae Nam, the founder of the IHF opened a gym in Nov. 1959 in his hometown as well. And in from Feb. 1962-1964 had a gym in Incheon. << I didn't say GM Lee was the first :-) GM Lee could have opened a school earlier than 1960, but he choose to finish university first. >> They all said Hwa Rang Do is not popular here in Korea, although, they have a few gyms here and there similar to KSW. I wonder why it is not practiced much in Korea. << It's difficult for the Korean HRD schools to get students because there is too much stuff to learn. As I'm sure you know, most MA's in Korea are simplifying, cutting techniques and making training easier. That is not the way Hwarang Do is going. GM Lee is adding instead of removing. The majority of the students in Korea don't have time to really train because of studies/work. It's actually possible to get a black belt in generic Hapkido by semi-learning 4-5 techniques and a couple of Taekwondo kicks. When GM Lee went to America there were 68 Hwa Rang Do schools in Korea with 16 of them in Seoul. The Hwarang Do demonstration team was 150 people (the 8mm movies are cool, the techniques are just as today). The problem in Korea has been that many of the highest ranking HRD masters left for America, but most of them didn't speak English that well, so they quickly changed to 'regular' jobs. The master who was left in charge of Korea died in a car crash (I think Korea have a couple of world records in car crashes). And the people who were left were much better martial artist than they were business men, so it's true that Hwarang Do is not well-known in Korea anymore. There are lot's of "old people" around though, and as I said, quite a few masters started using the much better known generic Hapkido name instead of Hwarang Do. One of the famous Taekkyon masters (Kwon Lee) is a Hwarang Do master, one of the main reasons Taekkyon has developed so much the last 10 years. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest