Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:56:12 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #99 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. step sparring (WTF) (Mike) 2. Ray Terry (J. R. West) 3. (no subject) (CHa6671447@aol.com) 4. Kyong Dang and the Muye Tobo T'ongji (Andrew Pratt) 5. The Kwangaeto stele (Andrew Pratt) 6. More Hwarangdo Information please. (neil clay) 7. Re: step sparring (WTF) (neil clay) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Mike" To: Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 20:29:14 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] step sparring (WTF) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Another thought. I do sparring drills that go like this. (fighters A and B in full gear face off left foot to right foot) A round kick to B B rear hand blocks the kick, follows immediately with lead hand jab A rising blocks the jab, immediately reverse punches B. (this is one cycle) B steps back (now they are right foot to left foot) Drill is repeated accross the room. At the end, B starts the drill working back to the other side of the room. ~there are other variants~ We also do full contact (like you mean it) one-steps with rib protector and caged helmet. Miguel Garcia's Tae Kwon Do http://garciatkd.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "J. R. West" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 21:19:10 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Terry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Probably better before, yes? What will be left of me after Master West gets > done.?.?. I mean, you can't be as handsome as me -and- be a mean son-of-a-gun > too... :) > > Ray Terry Sounds to me like ol' Ray may be suffering from delusions of adequacy, but I won't lay a hand on him next weekend because I'm not sure where he's been......J. R. West "When the green flag drops, the BS stops" (famous southern saying) www.hapkido.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: CHa6671447@aol.com Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 22:55:23 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net CC: CHa6671447@aol.com Subject: [The_Dojang] (no subject) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Message: 7 From: Steverts@aol.com Date: Mon, 18 Feb 2002 12:24:37 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Questions from a beginner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net i hope that all within the Dojang Digest are doing well. how are you Steve? the style of hapkido that you have chosen is a very good style. what i have discovered about warming up is: 1) try to stretch at home when possible, 2) get to class early enough to warm up especially during the winter months, 3) gradually increase your performance; use yourself and chief master to measure ability and not your fellow class mates, 4) find a real good chiropractor/naprapath in your area, and 5) most of all be patient, you will get better with time. i have purchased a number of hapkido books from kuk sool won to general hapkido. i find the books to be a nice supplement to attending class. the books that i reference more often than others are: kuk sool won vols. 1 & 2 by In Hyuk Suh, kuk sool by Dr. He-Young Kimm, hapkido (tradition, philosophy, technique) and the art of throwing both by Marc Tedeschi. there is another book that i neglected to mention which is martial arts over age 40 which in my opinion is a great start for you. the one thing that you must remember is that there are tons of techniques associated with the variations of hapkido of which there are even more permutations that means that you have to be in it for the long haul. once you get your black belt, that's when the real training begins. believe me, it's worth some of the aches and pains. just hang in there. i hope that i was able to answer you questions and provide you with direction. enjoy and much fun. also, out of curiosity, where is your school located? peace, Chris Harris Jun Tong Mu Sool --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Andrew Pratt" To: "dojang" Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:46:07 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kyong Dang and the Muye Tobo T'ongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig, You wrote in a recent dojang digest: > In some ways, the tapes were a bit of a disappointment. On the presentation side, I found the camerawork poor at times, with off-center shots and shots too far away for viewing ease. Also, the stills at the end of the tapes added nothing to the value of the material. The colorful uniforms, while nice to look at, were not only a bit of distraction, but you can see several times where the demonstrator became tangled up in it. I noticed several other mistakes by the demonstrators -- which is fine for a home movie, but not for a serious demonstration. With some work, all that could have been corrected. As to the material itself, it was both good and bad. The strength is definitely in the sword forms on Tape #1, and the Shoulin staff form on tape #2. Almost everything else was either not shown or shown only once. Concerning the forms displayed, I noticed some things. First, they were very linear. That might be attributed to the fact that there was probably rows and rows of soldiers performing these forms in formation. Second, the sword all the demonstrator used were katanas -- Which is fine for the Japanese sword arts, but not all the swords used in the Muye Dobo Tongji forms are katanas. (They looked like katanas to me in any case.) In short, the tapes are a very good start. I could see that the demonstrators are knowledgeable, if not exactly polished, in the material. I feel like there should be a third tape somewhere..... Am I glad I have them? YES! Could they have been better? YES! Should more tapes be produced that go over the material in a comprehensive manner? YES YES! I would hope that the National Demostration Team of Kyung Dang (The people featured on the two tapes) would sit down and put together a series of Professional-quality tapes that would teach these forms and give those who are us who are intrested to learn them. < I have practised Kyong Dang in Korea (and would still do so if there was a dojang nearby) so am interested to know how you obtained the videos. It is quite possible that the patterns were performed enmasse. However, in my research I came across the civil service bible of the time which describes the requirements for each rank. On the military side, this means that it lists the techniques, pon'guk-kom, yedo, chekkom, etc., that each rank should know. This does not necessarily mean that the regular soldiers did not practise these techniques but it does seem to imply that these techniques were limited to the officer class. If the techniques were indeed limited to the officer class then that probably greatly reduces the total number of soldiers who practised these techniques. Your question about the sword used has interested me for many years. I was particularly excited, as you can imagine, when I found the yedo techniques in Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i. The text was the same as in the Muye Tobo T'ongji but the illustrations revealed a crucial difference. The swords used were straight and very long. I believe that Katana-style blades were adopted during the Hideoyoshi invasion. There was the practical reason because many blades were captured during the fighting. I also think that the Koreans recognised that the Katana was a superior weapon and so, sensibly, they adopted the design. As for Kyong Dang, and other supposed recreations of historical martial arts, a good test is probably whether the techniques work when the practitioner is in traditional dress. As you no doubt noticed, the official clothes are large and baggy but the clothing shown in the Muye Tobo T'ongji is much more limited. This may indicate that the forms were never intended to be performed wearing official clothes and it is only the modern practitioners who are trying to perform the patterns while wearing official clothes. Regards, Andrew --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Andrew Pratt" To: "dojang" Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 18:46:35 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] The Kwangaeto stele Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ali, You wrote in a recent dojang digest: > the stela only adds to the conflict. Obviously historical interpretation is never immune from political motives, but my question is whose interpretation is most plausible? Here they are: 1) Japanese historians say that the stela confirms Japanese chronicles that say that a proto-Japanese people called the Wa crossed from Japan and occupied part of southern Korea. 2) Chinese interpretation that Korguryo was not really a Korean culture anyway, and that ethnically its people were more closely related to other Northeastern Asians (like Manchus?). 3) A South Korean interpretation says that Wa invaded Korguryo then Korguryo fought back and then Paekche allied itself with Wa and annexed Silla. 4) The North Koreans say that the Wa people were actually Koreans living in Japan, so if they invaded Korea it was just one Korean group occupying part of the peninsula. < Some additional background information is required before considering which theory is more plausible. I am writing this from memory so please excuse me if I am a little imprecise about some of the dates. The stele was rediscovered in the mid-19th century by a Chinese (proto-?)archaeologist. He took a basic rubbing of the stele but couldn't make too much of the rubbing because the characters were badly eroded. He mentioned it in passing to a Japanese envoy. Japan was going through the Meiji Restoration process and the envoy was very interested in the stele. He too took a rubbing of the stele. The envoy's seniors were extremely excited and a party was sent to take an authoritative rubbing. The party first coated the stele in a base. I am not sure if the purpose of the base was to protect the stele or to make it easier to take a rubbing. The base would make the rubbing easier because the archaeologists were able to re-cut worn (unclear) characters on the base without damaging the stele underneath. Of course, the three rubbings contain differences and some Korean historians charge that the archaeologists changed some crucial characters in their rubbing. My understanding is that the base still covers the stele. The archaeologists are waiting for the base to naturally wear off before taking another rubbing. The controversy revolves around a set of about 6 characters of which 4 crucial characters are missing. A good explanation can be found at http://gias.snu.ac.kr/wthong/publication/paekche/eng/hi4-1.pdf (I think Ray found this site to which I give thanks). The characters reads (and I had to translate two of the rubbings during one of my courses) something like, 'Wa [the oldest recorded name for the Japanese people] cross [unreadable] (and) conquered Paekche and [unreadable]-la [final character in a country name].' Therefore the crucial questions are 'what was crossed?' and 'what is the name of the country conquered?' The Japanese historians have generally interpreted the stele to read, 'Wa crossed the sea and conquered Paekche and Shilla.' However, the crossing could be 'river.' Normally, when we talk about the earliest period of Korean recorded history we talk about the 3-kingdom period, meaning, Paekche, Koguryo, and Shilla. However, in the earliest period of this period, there was in fact a fourth political entity. This entity is thought to have been a collection of 'city states' (though they were probably no more than small towns or glorified villages) that never quite managed to form a unified political structure in the way that the kingdoms did. These city states are recorded with various names in the histories, possibly referring to individual cities, but are generally referred to as Kaya in English. Unfortunately, the use of this name muddies the waters because (the 2nd most common name for the city states?) the city states are also recorded as being Kara. Therefore, counter-Japanese historians argue that the state conquered is not Shilla (an event not recorded in either the Samguk Sagi or Samguk Yusa. For this event not to be recorded would be astonishing since the record does not shy away from other Shilla losses) but Kara. There is speculation that one of the Kara city states was conquered / controlled by the Wa (I am not sure how this is known but perhaps the characters used sound Japanese). Thus crossing a river is possible reading. It has also been argued that the Wa were not a Japanese people but something similar to ancient Greece. That is, a confederation of maritime city states. some of the members were in the Kaya area, some in the Kyushu (and Tsushima?) area. The NK history, which should not be trusted if only because in the 1990's NK archaeologists claimed to have discovered the grave of Tangun (a legendary founder of Korea). More seriously, remember that NK follows Marx (and in fact the Chinese tradition) and believes that history does not represent a single truth but is part of the propaganda war and should be utilised to explain how and why the current regime came into being. The NK interpretation of the above mentioned section is that Koguryo (which NK seems to be claiming to be the inheritors of - and SK seems to imply that it is the inheritor of Shilla) crossed to Japan and conquered the Wa. This reading IS theoretically possible but requires several additional characters to be assumed. Although Chinese often leaves out words and assumes the reader will know the absent words, the NKs are requiring the reader to insert more words than is normal. Fortunately, the stele is in China so the NKs can not alter the stele to reflect their propaganda. The Chinese interpretation is new to me, I didn't think they cared. I thought this was purely a Korean-Japanese controversy. The Chinese claim comes from a Samguk Sagi record (and perhaps from the stele) which says that a Chinese prince was exiled and headed northwards and defeated an assumed control of an existing kingdom. This kingdom eventually evolved into Koguryo. Luckily for the Koreans, the Tangun figure predates the Chinese prince (in fact it is Tangun (or more likely, his descendents) who is overthrown). I have written elsewhere my own interpretation of these events (briefly, a tungsic state existed along in southern Manchuria and as the early Chinese states expanded northwards, it was forced back. Additional southward population flows of other tungsic peoples further north forced the state into the Korean peninsula where it bumped against the already existing tungsic (proto-Korean) states of Mahan (Paekche), Chinhan (Shilla), and (??). So, to try and conclude something that can not be concluded, there were population movements which led to conflicts among the proto-states. Territory was poorly controlled and probably changed hands frequently. Have a good weekend you all, Andrew --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "neil clay" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:07:04 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] More Hwarangdo Information please. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi, I'm new to this thread, and I'm still trying to figure out how to read these things... hehe. I'm a long time TKD player, and I also play Muay Thai (Siamese boxing). I keep hearing that HRD isn't the same martial art that the Hwarangs of the Silla used to practice. I hear HRD comes from HKD and Jujutsu, and was invented at a more modern time like TKD. Also, is HRD in any relation to Taek Kyon? I get mixed up when it comes to TKD's history, saying that TKD came from Taek Kyon which the Hwarangs practiced...high kicks to knock soldiers off horses etc... but then where does HRD come into play?? Because TKD and HRD both share the same codes of conduct... very confusing for me. Sorry for my naivety, I just have little knowledge of HRD and hope to get a better understanding. Thank in advance to anyone whom contributes. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "neil clay" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 03:50:35 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: step sparring (WTF) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Dizzy, I believe that the books you have by Yeon Kwan Park, are the closest you will get to the step sparrings. I haven't really seen a book that reviews the step sparrings yet, but they might be out there. The only thing that I have seen, is ciriculum papers which tell you the movements. Usually your master will have them in his/her instructor manual, if they will allow you to look at it. If you are looking for a book on sparring techniques, I recommend "Taekwondo Kyorugi" by Sang H. Kim with Kuk H Chung and Kyung M. Lee. This a great TKD book, I recommend to all TKD players at all levels. Its true that the ATA has books on the step sparrings, as I have a black belt in ATA as well, but the step sparrings a very different. I'm not sure about ITF taekwondo though. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest