Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:43:26 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #100 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Hyung (Carsten Jorgensen) 2. Re: HRD not = HKD w/a trademark (Carsten Jorgensen) 3. Re: Dojangs in the RoK (Carsten Jorgensen) 4. Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do (Carsten Jorgensen) 5. Re: Hwa Rang Do Stuff (Carsten Jorgensen) 6. More training tips (neil clay) 7. 0ne-steps (Charles Richards) 8. Re: Re: Hyung (Ray Terry) 9. Re: Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do (Ray Terry) 10. Day One - 2002 US Open (Ray Terry) 11. Re: Ray Terry (Klaas Barends) 12. Re: Kyong Dang and the Muye Tobo T'ongji (Creed71963@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:05:47 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Rudy and Bruce discussed: >> Your observation that many of our Hyung seem to have a distinct Chinese flavour is correct. << Or maybe the discussion should be "does every country in the world, except Japan have forms with flows from one technique to the other?" I think it's only Karate and styles which are heavily influenced by Karate (aka Taekwondo) that uses the hard "stop-and-go" forms? Forms in Thailand, the Philipines, India, Burma, Malaysia flows, but not Korea...? >>As I was informed, the hyung used were not developed by GM Suh or Seo. They were reported to have been around long before, and they were merely preserved by them. In fact, Gum Moo Hyung was reported to have doubled as a folk dance. << Hwang Chang and the Gum Moo / Sword Dance: http://www.hwarangdo.com/hwarang2.htm#hwangchang Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:07:22 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: HRD not = HKD w/a trademark Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> Be careful Ray, if you annoy Carsten any more he might sue you for libel! (not sure if that would be before or after Master West has dealt with you....) << Thanks Andrew! I was about to unsubscribe, but I think this can be a lot more rewarding. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=great+lawyer+sue Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:08:19 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dojangs in the RoK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anthony: >>In my nearly five years in South Korea I have seen only one Hwarang-Do school. It was located near Hyehwa, a university district of Seoul. It promised Hwarang Kumdo on the sign but appeared to teach Kendo. << Hwarang Kumdo is Kumdo/Kendo, not Hwarang Do. It was probably one of master Yum Chang Ho's schools (see my post to Andrew on Chongtong). Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:11:23 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: >> Quite a few of the larger "Hapkido" organisations, including Chongtong Hapkido, are old Hwarang Do masters who changed the name to the generic Hapkido because it's a lot more known as a martial art in Korean now. << Andrew: >> Hey, Chongtong Hapkido was my first experience of Hapkido and, coincidently, the first dojang I practised at in Korea. << >>Does this mean that I have been a secret practitioner of Hwarangdo but didn't know it? << I remember you posted a while back that you trained, just didn't have time to post at the time Hubae ;-) Some background info for you: Master Yum Chang Ho tested for 1st dan in 1971 at the 24th bb test, so he's not one of the senior masters. I showed his book to GM Park last time I was in Korea. His comment was "Chang-Ho-a made a book??! He was a nice boy but his techniques was never very good". I'm not going to post what he said after flipping through the book. >> (no longer have to search for a Hwarangdo dojang too). << I still recommend visiting a real school. It's interesting how much a style can change in just a couple of generations of instructors. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 20:14:02 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hwa Rang Do Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>What I was sharing was the impression that relative to many other organizations I didn't see HRD as being as public. The sense was that HRD folks tend to keep to themselves. << Well, I see it differently (of course ;-) I think that a lot of people don't know the history and have thought that Hwarang Do = Hapkido so they have not been very interested in finding out what Hwarang Do really is? Personally I think it'll change when people start looking at GM Lee's videos. >>BTW: Just a question thats a bit off to the side. Have any of the folks that you know who are seriously studying HRD had serious instruction in one of the other large HKD groups (ie. Sin Mu, Kuk Sool, etc.)? << Yes, quite a few have previous training. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "neil clay" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 04:18:31 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] More training tips Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net HI everyone, I was just wondering if anyone has anyomore training tips? Great list Ray Terry. Your information was very useful. I know that there is different types of speed that can be improved on like intiation speed, and agility speed. I'm just looking for more ways to train these speeds. I'm sure that there is things that I'm over looking in my training regime, but hopefully this will help to fill those gaps. Also, there are times that I am somewhere unfamiliar to me, or at work or something... and I want to do a little improvement on my speed and skills. You know, those crowded areas, but I don't really want anyone to see what I'm doing or to showcase what I'm doing. What type of concealable practicing would you guys recommend for these inspirations to practice? _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 05:52:52 -0800 (PST) From: Charles Richards To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] 0ne-steps Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Help out a non-tkd person, would you? Am I given to believe from these last few posts on 0ne-steps that particular styles or organizations within the TKD/TSD community have organized, discrete sets of one-step responses? I had seen folks do one-step sparring before, and at the beginning the techniques were taught in a particular order to facilitate remembering the techniques. However, I had concluded that with time and proficiency the techniques were executed spontaneously and in no particular order. Has anyone checked around to see if this is actually the best way to teach such material? Best Wishes, Bruce Bruce, you are wise. I no longer teach "numbered" one steps. I teach students how to parry and evade, and then we spar. I'm more interested in what they can do spontaneously. Now at times I will teach a concept as a static technique, and then show how to apply it from a straight punch or hook. It is my humble opinion that this is the best way to crisis rehearse. I must admit there is value in teaching "by-rote" in the beginning until the student begins to understand concepts like zoning away, parry, limb destruction and/or entrapment, takedown and pin follow up, etc. And the "by-rote" memorization method also gives the student time to develop the muscle memory that will be used in crisis situations. Finally numbered one steps can help you layout a fair and consistent belt requirements. Having done it both ways, I just believe in the crisis rehearsal method over the "by-rote" method. Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games http://sports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Hyung To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 6:43:27 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Or maybe the discussion should be "does every country in the world, > except Japan have forms with flows from one technique to the other?" > I think it's only Karate and styles which are heavily influenced by Karate > (aka Taekwondo) that uses the hard "stop-and-go" forms? Forms in Thailand, > the Philipines, India, Burma, Malaysia flows, but not Korea...? The Philippines? What forms are you familiar with from the FMAs? I have only seen forms in Doce Pares and they are clearly Karate influenced. >From what (little?) I've seen, the FMA's generally don't have forms, save perhaps the silat djurus of extreme southern RP. ??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 6:48:57 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Some background info for you: Master Yum Chang Ho tested for 1st dan in > 1971 at the 24th bb test, so he's not one of the senior masters. .... we must harken back to the comments someone made about when a school is one of the first... :) > I showed his book to GM Park last time I was in Korea. His comment was > "Chang-Ho-a made a book??! He was a nice boy but his techniques was never > very good". Ummm, was that necessary? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 07:19:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] Day One - 2002 US Open Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarding... Feb. 21, 2002 U.S. Open Taekwondo Championships Orlando, Fla. Orlando, Fla. -- Olympian Kay Poe, led the United States team to two gold medals in the first day of competition in the U.S. Taekwondo Open in Orlando, Fla. Poe, U.S. National champion and a 2002 Olympian, defeated Dalia Contreros of Venezuela in the finals after advancing through five bouts Thursday. Taylor Stone of Denver took the other U.S. gold in the female bantamweight division. Other gold medallists in the 33-country competiton included Sang Po Lee of Korea in the male finweight and Dennis Mollett of the Netherlands in the male bantamweight. "It was a tough day and the competition was outstanding," Poe said after her match. "This is one of the top tournaments in the U.S. and I'm happy with the win." Female Finweight (up to 103.3) Kay Poe, Houston, Texas, Gold Dalia Contreros, Venezuela, Silver Zorita Santiago, Puerto Rico, Bronze Rachael Marcial, Bronze Male Fin (118 pounds) Sang Po Lee, Korea, gold Paul Green, Great Britain silver Daniel Elkowitz, USA, Bronze Salvedo Gino, Columbia, Bronze Female Bantam (121 pounds ) Taylor Stone, Denver, Colo.,Gold Lee Xiau Jian China, Silver Marla Cabello,Venezuela, Bronze Alba Seda, Puerto Rico, Bronze Male Bantam (136.4 pounds ) Dennis Mollett, Netherlands, Gold Luis Garcia, Venezuela, Silver Oscar Salazar, Mexico, Bronze Jose Sagastumerios, Chile, Bronze Info provided by Mayumi Pejo Spence, vice chair tournament committee --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: 22 Feb 2002 16:07:45 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Ray Terry Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > but I won't lay a hand on him next weekend because I'm not sure where he's > been......J. R. West You don't know where your own hand has been??? :-) -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 10:28:29 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kyong Dang and the Muye Tobo T'ongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 02/22/2002 8:56:47 AM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Message: 4 From: "Andrew Pratt" To: "dojang" Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2002 17:46:07 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kyong Dang and the Muye Tobo T'ongji Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>Dear Craig, You wrote in a recent dojang digest:<< >>I have practiced Kyong Dang in Korea (and would still do so if there was a dojang nearby) so am interested to know how you obtained the videos.>> Andrew, First, thanks for responding! Second, where are you located? Turtle Press (http://www.turtlepress.com/) has a two tape set. It's from them I obtained the tapes. >> It is quite possible that the patterns were performed enmasse. However, in my research I came across the civil service bible of the time which describes the requirements for each rank. On the military side, this means that it lists the techniques, pon'guk-kom, yedo, chekkom, etc., that each rank should know. This does not necessarily mean that the regular soldiers did not practice these techniques but it does seem to imply that these techniques were limited to the officer class. If the techniques were indeed limited to the officer class then that probably greatly reduces the total number of soldiers who practiced these techniques.<< The reason why I thought the forms were done enmasse was the fact the forms were very linear. They were designed to train a large number a men at once -- all that would be needed was an open piece of ground. In that same context, I can't see the officers carrying and using some of the weapons -- the long bamboo spear, for example. >> Your question about the sword used has interested me for many years. I was particularly excited, as you can imagine, when I found the yedo techniques in Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i. The text was the same as in the Muye Tobo T'ongji but the illustrations revealed a crucial difference. The swords used were straight and very long. I believe that Katana-style blades were adopted during the Hideoyoshi invasion. There was the practical reason because many blades were captured during the fighting. I also think that the Koreans recognized that the Katana was a superior weapon and so, sensibly, they adopted the design.<< That's what the little research I have done indicates. I'm a regular over at swordforum.com, and some discussion on the Chinese sword board has centered on a General Qi, who help repel the Japanese pirates from Korea in the late 16th century. The good general was an innovator, and there is some indication that his manuals were used by the Koreans. Also, the swords used by the Koreas before adapting the Katana-style swords intrigue me. It is my belief that Chinese-style swords were the dominate form, but Koreans are known for adapting the design of the sword to the warrior, as oppose to adopting the warrior to the sword. It is mentioned in the Muye Tobo T'ongji that a couple of the sword forms are practiced with a single bladed sword for reason of safety, implying that the original form used a twin-bladed sword, which is what you discovered in the Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i. BTW -- is there an English translation of the Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i available? >>As for Kyong Dang, and other supposed recreations of historical martial arts, a good test is probably whether the techniques work when the practitioner is in traditional dress. As you no doubt noticed, the official clothes are large and baggy but the clothing shown in the Muye Tobo T'ongji is much more limited. This may indicate that the forms were never intended to be performed wearing official clothes and it is only the modern practitioners who are trying to perform the patterns while wearing official clothes.<< I would expect that the forms would be done in full armor -- if for nothing else, to get the soldiers use to wearing the armor. Armor tends to be more restrictive and more practicable -- anything that would have interfered with the soldier's ability to fight, such as the flowing robes used by the members of the Kyung Dang Demo team, would have been eliminated. Now, please don't think I'm putting down these people's work with the Muye Tobo T'ongji in any way -- I think their work is important and should be encouraged to reestablish Korea's martial arts linage. I just feel that the tapes could have been better. They give the viewer a taste, but they should have gone farther. I believe that there's a market for a series of tapes that would teach the Muye Tobo T'ongji forms, as well as explore the history and construction of the weapons used. I am interested in these older forms, and since I am a bit far from the dojang I consider my primary, I want to explore these forms for my own personal enjoyment. With today's explosion of McDojangs, the roots of these martial arts are shoved aside in favor of the $$$. I think it is up to those who see the martial arts as something more then something to make a living to explore and preserve these forms. The people who are involved in the Kyung Dang should be commended and encouraged for bringing these forms back to life. Craig --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest