From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #107 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rayreq@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 06:53:04 -0800 (PST) Status: RO Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Is this good news? (Dizzy S.) 2. Re: The integrity of Hapkido (Bruce Sims) 3. Re: In pusuit of a Kumdo History (Bruce Sims) 4. Dojang Attendance (Anthony or Clare Boyd) 5. Re: More Hwarangdo Information please. (Carsten Jorgensen) 6. straight swords (Anthony or Clare Boyd) 7. Kim Jeong Seong and HDGD (Anthony or Clare Boyd) 8. Re: Hyung (Carsten Jorgensen) 9. Re: various styles of hapkido (what is Hapkido?) (Carsten Jorgensen) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Dizzy S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:55:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Is this good news? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Anthony wrote: <<<>>> Wow! I'm with ya. I donno how to react either. If it happens, it'll be weird, I think, but it's worth it to watch the first show. You can always choose not to watch it (Like I did with Survivor hehehehe). Dizzy Yellow belt Kwok Wu Chuen TKD (5th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 24 Feb 2002 23:50:48 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The integrity of Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "....So Michael, I truly understand your frustration. But it getting worse and not better. As long as we pursue the idea that hapkido is indeed a true martial art and not a generic term we will persevere. But on the other hand, if we say that hapkido is a generic term we begin loosing the value of what hapkido really is....." I am right there with you regarding Mikes' frustration. However, I have a little different view about the nature of Hapkido and preserving its unique character and no small part of this comes from feelings very much like what you stated -- "getting worse and not better." Perhaps its the nature of human beings to constantly pare things down. Maybe its human nature to seek out the shortest route to a conclusion and routinely view things in terms of an "end" and whether or not the means are justified reaching it. Maybe its just the human condition to inflate things so that one suggests a level of sophistication with their advertising that they can't match with their practice. I honestly don't know for sure about any of this. I do know that each and every one of these things is chiseling away at the Hapkido arts and whats being left for the world to see is not even a shadow of what these arts could have been had people been a bit more dedicated to the art and less to what the art was going to do for them. I keep waiting for someone--- anyone--- to begin to push these arts to the next level (whatever that thing is) but it seems that it is all we can do just to tread water at our present level. We have no end of folks ready to designate themselves as "messiah." We also have no end of TKD-TSD schools who report teaching Hapkido simply because somebody taught them a couple of tricks. Hell, we can't get a single unified curriculum in the States because nobody is willing to submit to an oversight by anyone else and reveal how little they know relative to whatever rank they are professing to hold. I remember sometime back one of the MA magazines was touting Hapkido as the "art of the 21st century." I wonder how far into the century they were thinking. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 00:04:55 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: In pusuit of a Kumdo History Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Anthony, Richard, Todd et al: I honestly enjoy the heck out of talking sword. Its demonstrated over and over again that Hapkido students when they are exposed to weapons training usually will dutifully learn what required of all the weapons except one, and that one becomes a real love affair. For me I don't suppose its a big surprise for you to hear that the sword has become a true passion. That said there are some very important things I think that need to be mentioned about now. Modern Kumdo is not so old that we can't organize material to provide an accurate and consistent history of its development. My own teacher has taken me back as far as 1894 and has given me the names of those teachers in his lineage. I am sure that Anthony could be a good source for his line of HaiDong Kumdo and I'll bet Andrew and Richard and a host of others could pitch-in their material as well. As I say, I enjoy talking history and musing over the "what-ifs" and "what abouts". I am wondering if there isn't someway that we could firm-up a generally accepted history with an eye towards getting it published. I think it would be a real travesty to have people arguing over traditional Korean sword in 10-20 years the way we have argued over the Hapkido arts in the last couple of decades. Seems like we ought to be able to learn from our mistakes. It would also mean getting some of the Kumdo personalities to share what they know. GM Koo has alluded to material that would take me back earlier than 1894 and there apparently are some published materials specifically on sword that would fill in the void between now and 1790 when the MYTBTJ was published. Does anyone have any thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 17:21:04 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Dojang Attendance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray asked about dojangs offering six days of classes. I can't speak for all dojangs but in my experience Saturday is kind of a fun day. In both the Hapkido and Haidong Gumdo schools that I attend, Saturday is "fight day" as well as "obscene amounts of basics repetition" day. Whenever the dojang is open, masters expect their students to attend. If you cannot attend you must call. If you cannot call, you must apologize asap for not calling. If you regularly skip or cannot make classes then you take a lot longer to meet the attendance minimums for tests. In my Haidong Gumdo school one fellow developed sporadic attendance after reaching first dan. After a few months of this the Master took him into the office and told him to come more often or not at all. When I started training in Korea, the sixth day of training was much more common. These days, attendance is really sparse and a lot of schools I pass regularly are closed. Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 19:59:17 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: More Hwarangdo Information please. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Niel: >> I keep hearing that HRD isn't the same martial art that the Hwarangs of the Silla used to practice. << Hi Niel, I know you're new to the list, it's just that I've been through this a million times before. Please take a look at the Hwarang Do information at Ray's page: "http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/the_dojang/digests/koreanma.htm#11.0 Different Korean arts and styles" or at http://www.hwarangdo.com, especially the "founder" section. You are very welcome to ask questions after reading that. >> I hear HRD comes from HKD and Jujutsu, and was invented at a more modern time like TKD. << Don't go there!! ;-) >>Also, is HRD in any relation to Taek Kyon? I get mixed up when it comes to TKD's history, saying that TKD came from Taek Kyon which the Hwarangs practiced...high kicks to knock soldiers off horses etc... but then where does HRD come into play?? Because TKD and HRD both share the same codes of conduct... very confusing for me. << The Hwarang never practiced Taekkyon. Taekkyon is a much later (Yi-dynasty) folk-activity where people tried to sweep and push each other over using their feet. The only relation is that one of the leading Taekkyon masters is a Hwarang Do master who has helped adding Hwarang Do techniques to the modern Taekkyon style. Taekwondo shares the Hwarang Do code of conduct (O Kye – Five Rules) because some Taekwondo styles have borrowed the idea from Hwarang Do. The Silla Hwarang were the first, then Hwarang Do and then Taekwondo. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:40:54 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] straight swords Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net About straight "katanas" in Korean arts. I find it odd that this weapon has become synonymous with Korean sword arts. It is pictured as a unique weapon in the MYDBTJ but even in the pictures rendering the associated sword form, the images clearly show blade curvature... I mean, yeah it looks cool but... Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Anthony or Clare Boyd" To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 22:57:42 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Kim Jeong Seong and HDGD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I understand who it is that you met now. Kim Jeong Seong used to be a member of the World Haidong Gumdo Federation. Sometime between the summer of 2000 and now he has chosen to split from the Federation, move upper dan curriculum (ssang-gumbub) down to the lower ranks and put emphasis on the meditative gum-mu (sword dance). Personally, I always get annoyed when people split off from their parent organizations yet continue to do the exact same thing that they were doing before, including using the same name. I'd like to think we can all find some way to get along. In this case I was surprised and very pleased to see that Master Kim shows proper respect to his roots by naming and identifying the source of his organization. Perhaps this is an amicable split between Master Kim and the founder of Haidong Gumdo, Kim Jeong-Ho. In the organization at large gum-mu is a part of individual development as it is an expression of the internal. Ssang-gum is a small part of the curriculum over 5th dan and becomes a requirement for 8th dan. A lot of people want to do ssang-gum so I can see how an organization could splinter off on that promise alone. Still, this kind of stuff makes me a little sad. Thanks for the link though, it's a nice site. BTW, with the exception of the "About Us" page the HDGD information is straight from the material of the parent organization word for word. Copyrigths notwithstanding... Anthony Boyd www.stormpages.com/haidonggumdo --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:16:19 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Hyung Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: >> Or maybe the discussion should be "does every country in the world, except Japan have forms with flows from one technique to the other?" I think it's only Karate and styles which are heavily influenced by Karate (aka Taekwondo) that uses the hard "stop-and-go" forms? Forms in Thailand, the Philipines, India, Burma, Malaysia flows, but not Korea...? << Ray: >>The Philippines? What forms are you familiar with from the FMAs? >From what (little?) I've seen, the FMA's generally don't have forms, save perhaps the silat djurus of extreme southern RP. ??? << Not that many, I was thinking partly about an Arnis demonstration here in Copenhagen a couple of years ago where they did an unarmed form (quite sure it was a new form though). But especially series of weapon techniques I saw demonstrated in Manilla some years ago. I can't remember what the style was, but I'm quite sure I have his business card somewhere if you're interested? >> I have only seen forms in Doce Pares and they are clearly Karate influenced. << "Clearly Karate influenced" my point exactly :-) Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:02:32 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: various styles of hapkido (what is Hapkido?) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael: >> I remember seeing in the booklet that I previously mentioned and a photo of Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee and underneath it said "Hwarang-kwan Kwanjang Lee, Joo-bang" alongwith other kwan masters, such as Yun Moo Kwan Kwanjang Myung Kwang-shik and then Kuk-Sool-Kwan Kwanjang Kim Woo-tek (the Kuk-Sool-Kwan really confuses me because in Dr. Kimm's book, Kim Woo-tek is one of Kim Moo-hong's students, but he is the Kuk Sool Kwan Headmaster. I've always associated Kuk Sool with the Suh/Seo brothers). That's all the past so I don't dwell on it. << Sorry, I must have missed your post, I can't remember you posting on this before (if you find a copy I would be very interested in a copy/a scan!) I'm glad you did though because it confirms what I've been posting and what GM Lee says on Hwarangdo.com, including about GM Kim Woo-tack. Kuksool Kwan is the Kuksool Hwe (Hanguk Musool Hyophwe), the organisation GM Lee founded. Kuksool Kwan = Kuksool Hwe, Hwarang Kwan = Hwarang Do. Short names for the styles. See http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm. >> Anyway, there seems to be a point in history where Grandmaster Lee Joo-bang was in the original Korea Hapkido Association and his school was called Hwarang-kwan. << GM Lee was one of the founders of the original organisation: http://www.hwarangdo.com/hrd2.htm. This was when they were unifying all the different styles like Taekwondo had been a few years before. Hwarang Kwan = The style Hwarang Do. >> I do not judge Grandmaster Lee at all. << Heh, a lot of people have, usually without knowing anything about either GM Lee or Hwarang Do. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest