Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 08:55:27 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #108 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<--------------- The_Dojang mailing list --------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. What is (generic) Hapkido? (Carsten Jorgensen) 2. Hwarang Do in Korea is not always Hwarang Do (Carsten Jorgensen) 3. Re: Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do (Carsten Jorgensen) 4. Re: Re: More Hwarangdo Information please. (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Re: Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do (Ray Terry) 6. Re: Swords - Makers (Andrew Gassiot) 7. Generic vs. trademarks (Ray Terry) 8. More Sword Stuff (Richard Hackworth) 9. Re: Dojang Attendance (Klaas Barends) 10. Re:need some help (story) (Ricky Judge) 11. Re: Re: Dojang Attendance (Ray Terry) 12. Forms with a partner (Marcel Mason) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:10:08 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] What is (generic) Hapkido? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> I can understand why some would believe that "hapkido" is a generic term, but that unfortunately undermines the style itself. << It's important to understand that when I say that "Hapkido" and "Karate" are generic terms, then of course it only applies to the name itself. There is nothing generic about the style "Shotokan Karate" just as there is nothing generic about "SinMu Kwan Hapkido" or many other styles using the Hapkido name. But personally I rather think the undermining comes from so many different styles using the same name as if they were the same art. >> For hapkido practitioners, it's awfully frustrating when Taekwondo masters say they teach hapkido when they have absolutely no certification in it and can only do elementary joint-locks and throws. That's not fair! << I agree 100% >> Hapkido is a unique style. Hwarangdo is a unique style. Kuk Sool is a unique style. None of them are Taekwondo. << But there are thousands of very different styles calling themselves Hapkido, that's not unique. One of the problems on this list has been that when one person says "In Hapkido we do like this..." everybody have been thinking of their own style, which many times are very different from the original posters Hapkido. So people think they talk about the same, but actually they don’t. But if we agree that many very different styles uses the same name, we can discuss which styles should be able to use the Hapkido name for their style. I don't think that just because Hapkido has been used for different styles it should be used for just any style. "Cola" is a generic name for softdrinks, but root beer or Dr.Peppers (tm) are not "cola" even though they are softdrinks... >> Also, Hapkido of Grandmaster Ji's original students is different than Hwarangdo and Kuk Sool, so we, who are of that lineage, have a right to have our own name to distinguish ourselves from hwarangdo and kuk sool. << Since it's largely because of GM Ji and his students that the Hapkido name has "stuck" I, for one, has no problem if we define Hapkido as "all styles from GM Ji's lineage" GM Lee does not make any claim to the Hapkido name. My problem is if anyone think Hwarang Do = the "style" Hapkido just because the name was used generically for a few years for all the non-"Taekwondo" styles in Korea. Jere: >> As long as we pursue the idea that hapkido is indeed a true martial art and not a generic term we will persevere. But on the other hand, if we say that hapkido is a generic term we begin loosing the value of what hapkido really is.<< There are many Hapkido styles which are true martial arts. But the problem is exactly that "Hapkido" is not *A* style but 1000 totally different martial arts ranging from something close to what GM Choi taught, through Aikido to pure Taekwondo and everything in between. So actually there are not that many people who can say what Hapkido really is, no? There is nothing generic about the SinMu Kwan or many other styles, but painful as it may be in the beginning, the term Hapkido has always been used for different styles (Kwan). But to find some common ground, I suggest "Hapkido are all styles derieved from GM Ji's lineage". Even though I'm sure o lot of people will not like that idea. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:11:14 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwarang Do in Korea is not always Hwarang Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Michael: >> In reply to your question regarding Hwarangdo schools in Korea. I remember seeing a dojang near Sookmyung's Women University and Yongsan in Seoul that had signs saying both "hwarangdo" and "hapkido." I think it also said "kukjae yunmeng" which is Korean for int'l federation which makes sense since it is the Int'l Hwarangdo Federation. << It could have been another of GM Yum Chang Ho's schools or something else. The Korean Hwarang Do schools does not use the Hapkido name. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 20:13:57 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Me: >> Some background info: Master Yum Chang Ho tested for 1st dan in 1971 at the 24th bb test, so he's not one of the senior masters. << Ray: >>.... we must harken back to the comments someone made about when a school is one of the first... :) << Well, in Hwarang Do the people who took about the first 10 bb tests (1960 - ~1965) are senior masters, after that you start to have people who are also students of GM Lee's students. For instance Master Yum Chang Ho was also a student of GM Park. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Win a ski trip! http://www.nowcode.com/register.asp?affiliate=1net2phone3a --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: More Hwarangdo Information please. To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 7:27:48 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The Silla Hwarang were the first, then Hwarang Do and then Taekwondo. Using Major General Choi's date for TKD, that should be TKD then HRD. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Chongtong Hapkido kinda = Hwarang Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 7:41:41 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > in Hwarang Do the people who took about the first 10 bb tests (1960- .. Was there a HRD black belt test in that kwan's very first year of operation? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Andrew Gassiot" To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:11:39 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Swords - Makers Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Okay, This is somewhat of a shameless plug, but I am not associated with these guys at all. I first ran into Angel Sword at a renaissance festival in the early 90's and was most impressed with the quality of their products. Way to expensive for me, but fun to look at. They can make custom products to spec. www.angelsword.com DREW "Actually it's a buck and a quarter, quarter staff." --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 8:17:03 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Generic vs. trademarks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > >> Hapkido is a unique style. Hwarangdo is a unique style. Kuk Sool is a > unique style. None of them are Taekwondo. << > > But there are thousands of very different styles calling themselves Hapkido, > that's not unique. That is popularity. If HRD was not legally trademarked, and was popular, there might be hundreds or thousands of HRD styles. Some might even try to claim that HRD was a generic term. But we see what happened with HRD's Michael deAlba. Now where did I put that lawyer... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Richard Hackworth" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 10:38:45 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] More Sword Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net It seems that sword training is facing some of the same problems that Hapkido does. Some people think that because they watch the Highlander TV show that they are Korean style ninjas who can cross blades with the best of them. I have four years of formal sword training and feel that I am "good". Not, a ninja, Not great, NOT an expert. So I don't offer regular sword classes in my school. I do however over some clinics for the students who are more curious about the sword and want to enhance the minimal amount of sword work that we do in our Hapkido class. I have had two of my former sword instructors, one from Urayasu-shi, Japan and the other from Inchon, Korea, come to the school to teach so that we have a more qualified instructor leading the training and so that I can "sharpen my saw" as it were. I know one Hapkido instructor in Savannah, GA who nearly cut his foot off trying to do a sword form that he learned from a book at a public demonstration for his school. He had to be hauled away in an ambulance. I am sure that did not increase his enrollments or improve his student retention. There are too many people available to receive proper training from for someone to make that kind of mistake. Richard Hackworthwww.kmaia-usa.org  --- Richard Hackworth--- drhackworth@earthlink.net--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.  --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Klaas Barends To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: 25 Feb 2002 16:17:29 +0100 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Dojang Attendance Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > 4. Dojang Attendance (Anthony or Clare Boyd) > I can't speak for all dojangs but in my experience Saturday is kind of a fun > day. In both the Hapkido and Haidong Gumdo schools that I attend, Saturday > is "fight day" as well as "obscene amounts of basics repetition" day. My experience is about the same. You can attend a class from monday till friday. Saturday is a special day with special training. Some master will send their student away if they do not train on a regular basis. Other will let them stay. You don't have to live in Korea to have these kind of rules in your dojang, when my students do not attend class on a regular basis, a) they won't learn anything new b)After some time I will tell them to leave. We do 'obscene amounts of basics repetition' on other days as well :-) -- kind regards, Klaas Barends http://www.hapkido.nl/ --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Ricky Judge" To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:44:52 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:need some help (story) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Donna, There is a story like you describe in the first "Chicken Soup For the Soul". On a bus in Japan a young student attempts to stand up to a bully, but an old akido master intervenes with smiles and conversation to calm the bully. Your local library will have the book, check it out! I read this story to my class several years ago. S. Judge --__--__-- Message: 11 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: Dojang Attendance To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 9:29:07 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net So, Anthony et al... Back on the dojang attendance thing. Are the instructors in Korea that uneffected by commercialism to worry about loosing students given this focus on being at class 6 days a week? If so, I think that is great. Just asking... Seems that with the fairly recent biz downturn in Korea the instructors there might be less willing to loose paying students. ??? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Marcel Mason" To: Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 16:45:56 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Forms with a partner Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 13:31:32 -0600 >From: "Bruce Sims" >Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Form stuff > >"....Practicing forms with partners can even enhance our senses This interests me, are you discussing (for example) an individual standing between 2 partners where the partner to the left starts an attack and the person doing the taeguk (in this case the first one) would execute his/her 90 deg left turn, complete the low block [left] and counter with the stepping punch [right] at which point the second partner attacks and the person practicing executes the 180 deg turn with a low block [right] to answer that attack.. and so on? Thanks Marcel ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Have you seen http://www.norada.com/tour ? --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest