Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:50:32 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #114 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<----------------- The_Dojang mailing list ----------------->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Hwarang Do bb test (Carsten Jorgensen) 2. Re: Generic vs. trademarks (Carsten Jorgensen) 3. Re: Opening the records (Carsten Jorgensen) 4. Various (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Silat and Hapkido (Ray Terry) 6. Re: Differences and distinctions in Hapkido (Carsten Jorgensen) 7. Silat= So What !! (Ken McDonough) 8. film review, from the Serak list (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:14:22 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hwarang Do bb test Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> in Hwarang Do the people who took about the first 10 bb tests (1960- .. << Ray: >>Was there a HRD black belt test in that kwan's very first year of operation? << No, Hwarang Do's first BB test was May 5th 1961 Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Email.com http://www.email.com/?sr=signup --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:16:27 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Generic vs. trademarks Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >> If HRD was not legally trademarked, and was popular, there might be hundreds or thousands of HRD styles. << I'm very proud of the fact that Hwarang Do is ONE style and not 100 different styles. That's the whole point of trademarking! To keep Hwarang Do = Hwarang Do and nothing else. >> Some might even try to claim that HRD was a generic term. << Ehhh... who, why and how? >> But we see what happened with HRD's Michael deAlba. << What happened to Mike? He teaches "Dsystem" which is a mix of Escrima, Tai Chi, Hwarang Do and possibly more. I don't have any problems with that, as long as you don't call it Hwarang Do. If you change the basic techniques of a style then you end up with something else. If you take Dr. Peppers and mixes it with Coca Cola and red wine you don't have Dr. Peppers any more, so you don't call it Dr.Peppers... I've said this before, maybe Mike will develop his style into the greatest martial art in the world, and who knows, maybe he'll become a better martial artist than GM Lee. If anyone are interested they're free to compare his ability to GM lee's ability, his style to Hwarang Do. I've made my choice. Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Email.com http://www.email.com/?sr=signup --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:17:48 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Opening the records Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce: >> Personally, Michael, I wish to hell that he would! In fact, I will go you one better and say that I wish all of these organizations such as the HwaRangdo, Kuk Sool Won, ITF, WTF and so forth would identify members in good standing. << http://www.hwarangdo.com/certif.htm >> As aHapkido practitioner I get very tired of folks casually advertising that they teach Hapkido along with Karate, auto mechanics and underwater-basket-weaving. << Yep, know what you mean. >> We have the technology here in the Internetto put this information right out there for all the world to see. Why not do it? << WHRDA put up the information years ago. It's still not complete in the Korean BB section (they're working on some cool things for that part), but I helped type in the Korean BB information back in 1989 so it's all there (in some obscure format no current program can read I'm sure). Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Email.com http://www.email.com/?sr=signup --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 8:05:33 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Various Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > You're saying that GM Choi used the Hwarang O Kye before 1960??? Ummm, no. That Major General Choi used the name TKD before Gm Lee used the name HRD. > What happened to Mike? You don't know? The threat of lawsuit caused him to stop using the name Modern HwarangDo. > Some times it feels like the same again and again and... Same here. But we'll convince you yet. :) > I recommend looking at the Hwarang Do videos, Hwarang Do is not as > similar to Hapkido as you think. Been there, done that. Pretty much the same. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Silat and Hapkido To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 8:06:49 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > As for fighting a "Silat man," how do you identify him as such? Depending on how much you get to see him move... by the way he moves. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Carsten Jorgensen" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 23:18:45 +0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Differences and distinctions in Hapkido Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce: >> Where I see an advantage to this, however, is that we could have a reasonably intelligent experience comparing and contrasting our respective methods for executing various moves and techniques because the Hapkido arts share some common aspects.<< I think there are many "Hapkido" styles which has NOTHING in common with Hwarang Do, then there are styles with SOMETHING in common with Hwarang Do, and there are styles using the Hapkido name, who are actually from Hwarang Do’s lineage, which have A LOT in common with Hwarang Do. So just saying "Hapkido" does not make any sense... Carsten Jorgensen cj@hwarangdo.dk Copenhagen, Denmark -- _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Email.com http://www.email.com/?sr=signup --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 08:18:23 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Silat= So What !! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Wee partially noted: To: Subject: [The_Dojang] HKD vs. silat ? Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:07:25 +0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Not at all Ray. Silat is a generic term for Malay martial arts which are as diverse as Malaysian food (From Chinese influenced to Indian-influenced). Each style fight differently and it would be impossible for me to be familiar to all of them. So I will only concentrate on the ground-based, leg sweeping variety that you guy are familiar with. (Disclaimer: I am no expert and purely speak from my own experience, so don't sue me if you get killed fighting a silat man using my advice..:-)) Response: Good points on Silat. A lesser known art than Hapkido. I am moving from stick and free hand Filipino Arts training and will soon incorporate Silat. Must admit, the Silat is a deadly art and the movements have their own pattern and cadence. The inside fighting techniques are extremely effective and devastating. You say, "Silat,So What, I study Hapkido." I say, good. I won't argue with ya. Bye, Ken McD... Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net, eskrima@martialartsresource.net, policedo@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:24:39 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] film review, from the Serak list Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Forwarded message: Fwd: from Cpt. Tim Martin, US Army Gentlemen, A good review of a good film. Subject: We Were Soldiers Once and Young - Review Review: We Were Soldiers - 11 February 2002 By Robert L. McMahon, The film is based upon the 1992 best-seller, WE WERE SOLDIERS ONCE... AND YOUNG by Lt. Gen. Harold G. Moore, USA (Ret) and Joseph L. Galloway. It stars Mel Gibson as Lt. Col. Hal Moore, Sam Elliott as SGM. Basil L. Plumely, Barry Pepper as Joe Galloway and Madeline Stowe as Mrs. Julie Moore. If you're professional military, please take my advice - be a student of history. Study it like you do your weapon, your compass and your Guidebooks for NCO's and Officers. On a battlefield, if you have no appreciation for history and its context, you have no business leading yourself or anybody else into harm's way. Lt. General Harold G. Moore, USA (Ret) made it his mission to be a student of history and this saved his life and the rest of the 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry Regiment in a dark corner of the world called LZ X-Ray on 14, 15,and 16 November in 1965. Critics of he and Joe Galloway's 1992 best-seller, have often said that this one engagement could serve as an allegory for our whole involvement in that conflict and that's not too far from the truth. This film is unlike any Vietnam War film you have seen to date. The viewer's not treated to a brooding racial strife, drug culture or the sanctimonious piety of an anti-war movement. Randall Wallace, the producer and director of this film, stayed within the bounds of what the authors laid out: an epic struggle of young, scared men fighting to live to see another day. A struggle that had their fullest attention from the moment their boots hit the tall grass and heat of the Ia Drang Valley. The actors privileged to play out this struggle are damn near brilliant. Mel Gibson gives a very steady and reserved portrayal of Lt. Col. Moore. What Mr. Gibson brought across to the viewer wasn't so much a "role" as he brought the genuine "character" of Hal Moore to the fore. Any actor can put on a show, but Mr. Gibson captured the intangibles of character very, very well. His chief rock of support in the film is much like the real-life roles as well. It falls to the Battalion Sergeant Major, Basil L. Plumely, played to pure steel by Sam Elliott. Mr. Elliott's hard, laconic portrait of Sgt. Maj. Plumely is masterful. Our Army needs more of these Senior NCO's who can give staff weenies and the "consideration of others" types the runs just by looking at them. Someone who, when asked by Hal Moore whether or not he's going to draw an M-16 says, "Too much plastic for me sir. I want something with a little more substance." I won't spoil it for you, but Sam Elliott has the best pieces of dialogue in the film. And does he chew the scenery well. The film works on several other levels as well. Mr. Wallace has touched on many of the things that were wrong with that conflict and how the war was ultimately "managed". That's a key distinction between saying "fought" or "led". As General Moore would be only too willing to agree, "You cannot manage men in combat; they must be led." The first policy tremor comes when Mel Gibson's Moore says to his CO, "Why haven't they extended enlistments? You know what this is going to do don't you? I've effectively lost a third of my men before we've seen any combat. How could they do this? They've just invested time and money into training one of their newest divisions, but when we ship out for combat it's okay to lose a third of your best, highly skilled and most experienced officers and troops because their enlistments are up. I don't understand it." On the home front the thinking wasn't much better. As these young officers and men became casualties the Army wasn't prepared for that fact of life. Meaning, when a Western Union Telegram notifying a young wife that her husband was killed in action arrived, a taxi driver was sent to deliver it. No chaplain or accompanying officer was dispatched to ease the trauma. And back at the Tactical Operations Center (TOC) the thinking was equally as poor. Several times during this fierce battle General Moore was ordered out to give a debriefing to Colonels and Generals back in air-conditioned Saigon; General Moore respectively declined all requests. The intellectual disconnect with Hal Moore's combat situation and genuine "non compos mentis" on the leadership meter literally welled up in my throat. How could several West Pointers who have been trained since Day 1 to be leaders of troops, order one of their peers out of a fight where his leadership was sorely needed? Where was their perspective? Where was their purpose? General Moore clearly knew his purpose was to be with his troops and, if need be, die on the field with them. The film is also brutally unrelenting in its portrayal of combat. The fight in the Ia Drang was up close and personal. Several times units had to go hand-to-hand with their enemies in a dance of fists, bayonets and bludgeoning rifle blows. It's not a film for the faint of heart. For those unfamiliar with General Moore and Joe Galloway's book, the film is only half the story. Mr. Wallace went out of his way while writing the screenplay and producing the story to capture the horror of war and the honor of the men fighting it, but he couldn't include, in a two and one half hour treatment, the story of LZ Albany. For what the North Vietnamese could not sufficiently do to General Moore and his 1st Battalion, they were to do to the sister 2nd Battalion. They were over-run and decimated while strung out in a line over 500 yards long. Survivors of platoons and companies could be counted on one hand. In closing I would like to leave you with some of General Moore's words he imparted to his officers and battalion staff when he took over the unit back in '65. These simple principles kept many of his men alive: "Only first place trophies will be displayed, accepted, or presented in this battalion. Second place in our line of work is defeat of the unit on the battlefield, and death for the individual in combat. No fat troops or officers. Decision-making will be decentralized: Push the power down. It pays off in wartime. Loyalty flows down as well. I check up on everything. I am available day or night to talk with any officers of this battalion. Finally, the sergeant major works only for me and takes orders only from me. He is my right-hand man." A resounding "Garry Owen" to Randall Wallace for mothering this story through and for holding true to General Moore and Joe Galloway's spirit in telling a story of ordinary men who wound up fighting and dying for each other. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest