Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 14:40:38 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #115 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Question for Mr. Pratt (Ray Terry) 2. Dan records (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 3. USTF (Bert Edens) 4. only two IHFs ? (Ray Terry) 5. Re: Documents and Corroboration (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: mixing (Brian Beach) 7. Re: USTF (Robert Martin) 8. Slobber Evasion (Patrick L) 9. RE: Can't best That!! (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 10. RE: Fly in the ointment time (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 11. Public Directories (Richard Hackworth) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:42:23 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Question for Mr. Pratt Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Now that WEE is off the hook, how about we put Andrew on it.?. :) I believe that Andrew is studying Aikido (and a bit of HDGD) in Korea??? Andrew, is it possible for you to tell how/if your instructor's Aikido teaching has been influenced by the Hapkido (generic or not :) around you? Have you had a chance to visit any Aikido dojos in Japan or elsewhere to compare the Aikido in Korea with the Aikido outside the country? Just curious. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 09:28:38 -0800 (PST) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan records Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Yes, it would be quite interesting to see who actually trained with GM Myong Jae Nam and who just "BOUGHT" their certificates. I spoke with some of his family members and I got an ear full of who really never learned IHF techniques but are calling themselves IHF affiliated. Funny an IHF school teaching Taekwondo hyung's and Kuk Sool techniques with an IHF logo hanging on the wall along with their IHF certificates. Seems like folks are just like roaches and crawl out of the woodwork when someone passes away which such crazy and bold statements. ===== International HKD Federation-Sun Mu Kwan USA www.ushankido.org Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:38:10 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] USTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >From: Ray Terry >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] USTF > > Does anyone have any knowledge of another USTF other than the United States > > Taekwon-Do Federation, which is the US governing body of the > > ITF(International Taekwon-Do Federation) founded by Gen. Choi? Maybe like > > around the Missourri part of the MidWest? > >There is another USTF (United States Taekwondo Federation) out of >Hot Springs, Arkansas that is under the GTF (Global Taekwondo Federation). >This USTF is headed by Scott McNeely, 7th Dan. I do believe that they >have a handful of affiliated schools in Missouri. > >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Greetings... I am a member of this "other" USTF. Yes, we do have several schools based in Missouri. The school's web site is www.ustfonline.com. That would list any schools based in Missouri. As for the certificate, if it was legitimate, it would have Master McNeely's stamp on it, so to speak. BTW, Master McNeely was recently promoted to Grandmaster Park Jung Tae of the GTF. I don't think we are technically "under" the GTF, but we are affiilated with them. GM Park will be at our next tournament, which will be in Hot Springs on March 15-16. If you have any questions about the organization, don't hesitate to drop me a note, or visit the USTF web site... Thanks for your time! <> - Bert Edens 1st Degree Recommended, Level 2 Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 10:51:22 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] only two IHFs ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Yes, it would be quite interesting to see who actually > trained with GM Myong Jae Nam and who just "BOUGHT" > their certificates. I doubt any Dan records would indicate that. "He/she paid, but did not pass." > I spoke with some of his family > members and I got an ear full of who really never > learned IHF techniques but are calling themselves IHF > affiliated. Are there just two IHFs or are there more? There is Myong Jae Nam's and Bong Soo Han's. Any others? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 11:38:11 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Documents and Corroboration Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Carsten: If I am following this exchange at all well, the “Holy Grail” here seems to be the ability of any ONE player in the development of the Hapkido arts to demonstrate that they were the first, and thereby making everyone else descendent from them and so junior in status. Am I right? Failing that, a person could establish their own lineage based on a separate but equal tradition in which they themselves are then the senior and everyone else is junior to them, yes? That said, and in either case, the individuals involved will need to document and corroborate their claims. In the case of GM Ji, this does not require much more than documenting/corroborating his claim back to GM Choi. GM Choi was a known personality, of known ability, and produced a number of talented individuals of known ability, many of whom went on to teach and have students of talent. Fine. GM Lee has it a bit rougher. Suahm Dosa is an unknown quanity. No census records. No birth records. No monastery records. No Tax records. Korea has had monasteries for hundreds of years and kept records on their slaves and tenent farmers. How is it that a person of Suahm Dosas’ status (apparently over the 50th GM of UM/Yang Kwon Bup) was overlooked? What about the other 50 or so GM of this art. Did none of them have students? Are none of them remembered by their communities, monasteries or Orders? In fact, it would be very interesting to know how the Lee family corroborated Suahm Dosas’ story. Remember now, I am NOT talking about all the way back to the Hwa Rang warriors. I’m just talking about in the last 200 years --- year 2000 back to about 1800. Nor am I talking about some fantastic historic feats by a monk that garnered recognition by the government. Just a simple paper trail. How about biomechanically? HwaRang techniques bear a resemblance to Daito-ryu and Sin Mu Hapkido. Fine. They also bear a similarity to a number of styles of Chin Na including Eagle Claw and Praying Mantis. That’s OK, too. But the swordwork and the emptyhand hyung – shouldn’t they also bear a similarity to something other than themselves? In fifty generations of Um/Yang Kwon Bup practitioners are there absolutely no other practitioners? And couldn’t we reasonably expect to see similarities in execution among the various hyung these folks would practice? Perhaps similarities between what Suahm Dosa practiced and what was practiced at other monasteries? Just some simple corroboration? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 13:57:55 -0500 From: Brian Beach To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: mixing Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net on 2/27/02 12:50 PM, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net at the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: >> If you take Dr. Peppers and mixes it with Coca Cola and red wine<< Is that good? - --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:04:14 -0800 (PST) From: Robert Martin To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: USTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net According to the sources I've talked to (including GM Sereff) this was settled years ago to everyones satisfaction. Robert Martin USTF/ITF > > "There is another USTF (United States Taekwondo > Federation) out of > Hot Springs, Arkansas that is under the GTF (Global > Taekwondo Federation)." > > How can they call themselves United States Taekwondo > Federation?? I would > be afraid of Master Chuck Sereff bringing down some > legal heat if I did > that. I'm sure the ITF/USTF would have some sort of > legal rights to that > name wouldn't they? > Thanks for the information. > > James Morgan Yahoo! Greetings - Send FREE e-cards for every occasion! http://greetings.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Patrick L" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 12:58:54 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Slobber Evasion Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mr. Sims, >I don't think Michael or myself or anyone else is making an issue of GM >Jis' criteria for making appointments or bestowing ranks. I think everybody >on the list knows that I personally have an issue with this, but that was >not the intent of my recent post. Rather, what I was speaking to was the >large and perhaps growing numbers of individuals who identify themselves as >Hapkido instructors and Hapkido teachers who have neither the education or experience to represent themselves as such. I am talking about TKD/TSD teachers who attend a seminar and learn a couple of techniques. I am talking about individuals who send away to a certificate mill. I am talking about folks who "borrow" techniques from several styles and make-up their own art and coincidentally call it "hapkido".< My point was that you cannot comment on the recipient without commenting on the presenter, so I believe that Mr. Tomlinson was calling GM Ji's judgment into question (even without intending to do so). Furthermore, if you are correct in your belief that there are issues there, I believe it is not in Hapkido's best interest to poke this hornets nest. But rest assured that I share your concern about quality in Hapkido. However, the best way (IMHO) we can slow the proliferation of bogus Hapkidoists is to be so demanding of ourselves and our students that the inadequacy of others is obvious. We should affiliate ourselves with organizations that are dedicated to spreading Hapkido, not those plagued with family control and dedication to arts other than Hapkido. So now to get myself in serious doo-doo... The reason many Tae Kwon Do schools teach "Hapkido" is because TKD finds itself lacking in Self-Defense technique - but NO REAL Hapkido school need teach TKD, it is superfluous! BTW before anyone flames me - please CAREFULLY read the above paragraph. I thank you in advance for your cooperation. Getting in the WAY, Patrick _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:16:18 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Can't best That!! Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Carsten: "....WHRDA put up the information years ago. It's still not complete in the Korean BB section (they're working on some cool things for that part), but I helped type in the Korean BB information back in 1989 so it's all there (in some obscure format no current program can read I'm sure)....." Thank you. I can only hope that other organizations follow suit. Gawd, what a blessing THAT would be! BTW: Is the integrity of the data for this list current enough to conclude anyone claiming membership and not showing-up would be suspect--- or is there some sort of lag time that needs to be taken into account? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 15:25:06 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Fly in the ointment time Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Carsten: "......I think there are many "Hapkido" styles which has NOTHING in common with Hwarang Do, then there are styles with SOMETHING in common with Hwarang Do, and there are styles using the Hapkido name, who are actually from Hwarang Do's lineage, which have A LOT in common with Hwarang Do. So just saying "Hapkido" does not make any sense......" Well THATS disconcerting!! It leaves me wondering how we could ever have a meaningful dialogue if the commonalities keep getting denied. In fact this sorta comes back to my feelings that HwaRangDo folks see themselves as a rather exclusive club. I can dialogue with Karate people because I can understand the commonalities Hapkido shares with Karate. The same goes for Judo or any other art. Hell, I can even dialogue with Richard, and you know how I feel about commercialism in the MA. But I would have a very hard time interacting with someone whose techniques look similar to my own, but for fear of jeopardizing the integrity of their art denies to me that what I see is really not whats going on. Thats a tough nut to crack. Best Wishes, Bruce > End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "Richard Hackworth" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Feb 2002 17:27:29 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Public Directories Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, several of those organizations have published directories of members in good standing before. But 3 things always happened when they did. First, someone on the list would do something that caused them to be thrown out of the organization but would still be appearing in the directory until the new one was printed. This would create an embarrassing problem for the organization. Second, people recently promoted after the directory was printed would not appear. This would create problems for them because people would wonder why they weren't on the list. The third thing that would happen is that some scum bag from a rival organization would use the directory as a list of people to contact and solicit to join their organization and spread rumors to undermine the organization that printed a directory. GM Ji's Dan registry would only list people who had at one time or another received a promotion from him. Making it public would cause a landslide of applications for promotion from people who don't deserve it but would love to have their name on the list. Don't you think that he has enough people who attended one or two seminars and then claiming him as their teacher? Some of these people who are certified and appear on his registry have Never met him. They just mailed in their application and now they are listed in the registry. What about the people who were recognized masters and teachers who automatically received promotions when he was President of the KHA? They would appear also, even though they had never been his student. Making the registry public would cause as many problems as it would solve. Richard Hackworthwww.kmaia-usa.org --- Richard Hackworth--- drhackworth@earthlink.net--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.  --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest