Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:38:49 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #117 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Getting Tossed Out Of Organizations (Richard Hackworth) 2. RE: USTF (Morgan James) 3. Korean martial arts history (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 4. Hapkido and Silat (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 5. Re: Organizational Disclosure Stuff (Bruce Sims) 6. Re: Organizational disclosure Redux (Bruce Sims) 7. Black Belt, old issue (F Pitt) 8. Re: Black Belt, old issue (Ray Terry) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Richard Hackworth" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 5:23:24 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Getting Tossed Out Of Organizations Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Actually getting tossed out of an organization is not that uncommon. Many organizations will not allow convicted felons to belong to their organization. So if for some reason an instructor gets convicted of a crime, and it does happen, they are "tossed out". For example. A TKD instructor in Woodbridge Virginia was convicted of molesting a young boy and the Shotokan organization that he belonged to "tossed him out". Richard Hackworthwww.kmaia-usa.org  --- Richard Hackworth--- drhackworth@earthlink.net--- EarthLink: The #1 provider of the Real Internet.  --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Morgan James To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:26:37 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: USTF Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "The school's web site is www.ustfonline.com." Thank you, thank you. This is exactly what I was looking for. Within this website I found the instructor within this USTF that I needed to contact about my new student who came from this organization. DD comes through again!!!! Thanks gang, this is without a doubt the best online information tool that I have run across in regards to martial arts. James Morgan Greenbrier Tae Kwon Do Academy --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:30:45 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korean martial arts history Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce wrote: > Suahm Dosa is an unknown quanity. No census records. No birth records. No STUFF DELETED > ... Just a simple paper trail. Thanks Bruce! That is what is missing in a lot of arts PARTICULARLY a lot of Korean styles. What documentation there is, as I've said for years, supports a much different hypothesis than what is told to us by most Korean masters. The written documentation shows that Korean martial arts were very much like, if not identical to, Chinese martial arts up through the 1800s. When the Japanese took over the country, their martial arts came with them. After the end of World War II and the Chinese Revolution, Korean arts began mixing Japanese styles with the Chinese methods taught by Chinese refugees. Why don't we ask Robert Young what martial arts the Korean-speaking peoples stuck in Manchuria (inside the PRC) practice? I have a feeling that he will say t'aekkyeon, sireum, and wushu. I doubt there will be much influence from Japan up there, or rather, more influence from Japan than is found in the PRC itself, given the great success of judo and karate. Bruce then brings up what he calls the "biomechanical" trail... > But the > swordwork and the emptyhand hyung - shouldn't they also bear a similarity to > something other than themselves? In fifty generations of Um/Yang Kwon Bup > practitioners are there absolutely no other practitioners? Again, I think this is a great point. We should see SOMETHING new, and I don't mean something that only people in the art for 20 years will see. If there is something different about the system, it will bleed out to other arts sooner or later. What I see instead in the Hwarangdo system is a lot of very well-trained martial artists who espouse an ancient lineage they can't prove. I don't care about lineage much - if someone can fight, they can fight. But if I think they're wrong about one thing, I get a sneaking suspicion that they might be wrong about other things. I begin to question their self-assessment methods, and if there's one thing martial artists truly need, it is the ability to constantly subject themselves to reality checks! Patrick writes: > So now to get myself in serious doo-doo... The reason many Tae Kwon Do > schools teach "Hapkido" is because TKD finds itself lacking in Self-Defense > technique - but NO REAL Hapkido school need teach TKD, it is superfluous! I think Patrick is wrong here, because no art is so complete it can't learn from others. I know that my practice in TKD has helped me in at least one way - an awareness of range. When I play with some of my HKD buddies, they are often used to a partner who stands still (DEPENDING ON THE STYLE OF HKD! - more on that later), and it is an easy matter to hit them and not get hit oneself, because their understanding of closing the gap is not as sophisticated. Carsten wrote: > So just saying "Hapkido" does not make any sense......" And Bruce said: > Well THATS disconcerting!! It leaves me wondering how we could ever have a > meaningful dialogue if the commonalities keep getting denied. To be fair, there's a number of different styles calling themselves "Hapkido." I know that Jere's folks do what I would class as Aikido - lots of big circles and redirections. GM Ji's folks do more aggressive, small circle applications. The USHF people tend to retreat a lot, but their locks are very similar to those of the Combat Hapkido guys. The modern Kuksool guys tend to do locks like USHF and Combat Hapkido (from what little I've seen), with the aim of training safely. The combat Kuksool guys (from the 1970s) do locks like GM Ji and do them HARD. So what is our definition of HKD? It uses circular and linear motion, and teaches locks, strikes, and throws? Isn't that the definition of a LOT of other styles as well? I tend to think of hapkido as whatever I'm doing when I'm in a HKD seminar, and ditto with bando, silat, and the rest. It is all just practice at fighting, and there's only so many ways to do that. Now, it is possible that I've ticked off a number of people with this post, either because I misrepresented their art, or because I didn't talk about them and didn't give them a chance to be misrepresented. Please remember that all of this is just my opinion, and that not that many people listen to me anyways. And, if you don't mind teaching an old dog new tricks, feel free to email me. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 08:34:31 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido and Silat Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net S.H. Wee wrote: > Regardless of what style he is from, the trick is, in the first few seconds > you blast off, you have to dominate the fight and get him to fight your way. > The same way Gracie did in the UFC. And in order to do this, you have to > train very hard, as realistic as possible and try to get as many exposure > from different arts as possible. I agree completely!!!! Thanks!!! Dakin --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 06:53:22 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Organizational Disclosure Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Patrick: This is not an easy thing to discuss given the limitations of our medium here, but I think it is very important to consider all the same. Lets go slow, though. First off, let me say again that it is not GM Ji-s criteria that I am discussing. Lets save that for another day, yes? :-) Rather the issue that I am singling out is the integrity of a system which, for better or worse, is becoming part and parcel of the MA/MT scene. As I have said many times before, there is no tradition of ranking, GM-s, and certification such as we have today. It really does not matter what I think of the system itself. However, if such a system of guep ranks, Dan ranks, certificates and organizational positions is to be a part of the daily life of the KMA then I think we need whatever safe-guards as can be used to make sure that the system is not abused. Whose responsibility is this? Well, I lay it at the door of the people who state that they are part of the system. Here are some of the issues I see that need to be addressed. 1.) Certificate mills. People send off to organizations, pay their fees and receive a certificate (suitable for framing) which when displayed suggests that they have participated in the same sort of training as people who have dedicated years in the classroom. 2.) Administrative versus technical rank. People of whatever ability or character accrue a sufficient following such that an organization will bestow a significant rank in order to garner revenues from that persons' following. This rank, though administrative in nature is then displayed and so taken by others to be a reflection of that leaders TECHNICAL skill. 3.) Membership management. The population of members to any single organization is very fluid. There are rank hunters seeking to bounce from organization to organization so to accrue rank more quickly. There are politics where school members are seeking what they consider appropriate consideration and regard for their positions as leaders of whole constellations of schools. There are new and relatively new students who bounce around because they don't know what they want. Organizations are responsible for knowing who is in their fold, and that folks are abiding by the rules and intent of the organization. I think this is especially true when the question of state certification or licensure of MA instructors rears its ugly head. Now, Richard shared that there are some meaningful reasons why we might want to be careful about how this is done, and I want to state very clearly that I can certainly understand those issues he raised. But if I state to the MA community that I teach --- say--- Sin Moo Hapkido, or HwaRangDo-- or if I report that I am organizationally connected to the KHF or USHF I think that I had better be able to document it from my end--- and get validation from the organization and be able to do this all in a very public way so that there is no doubt in anyones' mind. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 07:24:03 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Organizational disclosure Redux Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Richard: All your points are excellent and need to be respected. Whatever ones' goals might be for training or following a particular art or style I don't think its safe to assume that we are a community of saints, ne? :-) How about we take these one at a time. "...First, someone on the list would do something that caused them to be thrown out of the organization but would still be appearing in the directory until the new one was printed. This would create an embarrassing problem for the organization....." Yes, there are a lot of clowns and yes they do things that piss-off leadership, or violate the rules and that person finds themselves on the outside of the organization. However, part of the responsiblity of running a legit organization is keeping up with all the paperwork. Tests and certs need to be provided on a timely basis. members and their standing in the community need to be published regularly and accurately. Yes, its a pain in the butt, but its part of running an organization. I think the Internet with its webpages and websites are the best answer to getting this information out for everyone to see. ".... Second, people recently promoted after the directory was printed would not appear. This would create problems for them because people would wonder why they weren't on the list...." I'm not sure that it is too much to ask for people to expect SOME level of delay in getting their standing published. I tested for my 3rd Degree in HwaRang Kumdo in December and was awarded my certificate this last Tuesday. These things take time. However, I honestly believe that folks often time bounce around from organization to organization because they are not getting the recognition or regard they think they have coming. One way to do this would be to publish an accurate account of peoples' relative standings for all the World to see. "....The third thing that would happen is that some scum bag from a rival organization would use the directory as a list of people to contact and solicit to join their organization and spread rumors to undermine the organization that printed a directory. GM Ji's Dan registry would only list people who had at one time or another received a promotion from him. Making it public would cause a landslide of applications for promotion from people who don't deserve it but would love to have their name on the list....." And this would be a "bad" thing? Maybe I might be a bit innocent about such things but from what I can tell from many of the responses to various posts on this Net most people are pretty loyal to their particular organization if they have invested any time or effort at all. M West seems pretty tied into GM Kimm; M Nabors seems pretty close to GM Ji. Carsten doesn't give any indication of giving up on GM Lee sometime soon. Hell, I don't even belong to the WHF anymore and I still have tons of respect for GM Myung. Richard, the only people I see as being a bit nervous about having their names openly associated with a particular organization or rank are those folks who know in their hearts that their investment of time and effort are questionable and are afraid of having this exposed. Now, just one last thought. Sometimes I rake people pretty hard when it comes to leadership and organizations. Lately I was pressing Carsten about the nature of the HwaRangDo organization. I still have some feelings that they are pretty closed-off and elitist in their approach but thats just me. One good thing that I CAN say about this, though, is that were I to assess the skill level of any of the players in that organization I'll bet their standing in the organization and their technical skill are pretty accurate. Whatever I might think about GM Lees' claims reagrding his heritage, he does seem to run a tight organization! No small trick. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 05:36:01 -0800 From: F Pitt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Black Belt, old issue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I just joined the digest and was looking at a questions regarding a black belt student (issue was back in Sept. 2001). I am in a school where we recently acquired a new TKD female "black belt" from Korea who doesn't meet the black belt standards presented by our instructors. In fact, she did not even know Chung Ji Hyung and other colored belt forms (no forms) and didn't know other required techniques and drills. I don't know if I was the only one (I think not) who resented the fact that she propped herself in front of the class after training and we were (still are) required to bow to her and "thank her." I for one was very uncomfortable with this as even the lower belt students (yellow belts, etc.) knew far more than this black belt. My instructors at the dojang have earned at least my respect because of their leadership, morality, and ability to perform almost perfect techniques and forms any time,any day. As the senior "BB" in classes during the week, she is unable to lead in practices because she doesn't know them! We, as lower belt students are required to teach her (thereby, sometimes being unable to practice even at our own level)! This has led to my beginning to disrespect our instructors for allowing her to come in as a black belt because that's what I guess she told them she was. This also got me into trouble for being disrepectful, a real no no at our dojang. I eventually began to bite my lip and now try to respect her as a black belt, but inside, I respect other lower ranking students in the class more than I do her and would just assume bow to them at the end of training than to someone who is not taking leadership status (won't instruct us when she's the only BB on the floor) and doesn't know most of what we've already been taught. Guess I just needed to vent this because it DOES affect other students in the class when a new student joins at that level and we are expected to follow them due to their "experience" which has earned them their belt. Perhaps I am asking too much? --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Black Belt, old issue To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 7:13:41 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > black belt student (issue was back in Sept. 2001). I am in a school > where we recently acquired a new TKD female "black belt" from Korea who > doesn't meet the black belt standards presented by our instructors. In > fact, she did not even know Chung Ji Hyung and other colored belt forms... Chung Ji Hyung? Sorry, I wouldn't know that form either. If she is from Korea she most likely would not have attended a dojang that practiced that form. Could she do Koryo? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. 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