Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2002 01:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #120 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Black Belt, old issue (jsegovia@mindspring.com) 2. Discipline Shoes (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 3. RE: Two ITF's ?? (Prince Loeffler) 4. Re: Black Belt, old issue (Tom Kennelly) 5. Re: fake BBs (Loucat101@aol.com) 6. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #117 - 8 msgs (F Pitt) 7. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #118 - 11 msgs (F Pitt) 8. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #119 - 13 msgs (F Pitt) 9. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #119 - 13 msgs (Creed71963@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 16:02:16 -0500 From: To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt, old issue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net F Pitt wrote: > I am in a school > where we recently acquired a new TKD female "black belt" from Korea who > doesn't meet the black belt standards presented by our instructors. For me, the answer is simple. If my instructor were to bring someone to our dojang and present him or her as being at a certain level, I would trust his judgment and fully accept this. I may have a question about his or her ability, and if I felt this person were unfairly placed above me or other students at the dojang, I may feel the need to bring this up to my instructor privately, but if he stood by his decision, that would be that. I would never raise the issue again. And showing any ill will publically at the dojang is out of the question. You either support your dojang's leadership or you don't. Jesse --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 15:32:00 -0800 (PST) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Discipline Shoes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Just got my pair in this afternoon and they are the best fitting shoes ever. Much better than my cheap Moo Sool Sa plastic shoes. Their coming to Korea with me this June. I highly recommend them. ===== International HKD Federation-Sun Mu Kwan USA www.ushankido.org Yahoo! Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball http://sports.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Prince Loeffler" To: Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2002 18:03:26 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Two ITF's ?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Maybe I am behind with this...I notice that there are two Choi's ITF website ...Have the son finnaly split with the Father's organization. General Choi's is : http://www.itf-taekwondo.com/main.htm Choi Jung Wa. is : http://www.itf-choijunghwa.com/ And also I heard thru one of the WTF's student that there is a plan to change the current WTF forms. Is this true Thank to all in Advance ! Prince --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Tom Kennelly" To: Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 13:53:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Black Belt, old issue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This Dojang Digest was a great place for you to bring up this issue. While thinking about what you wrote and your feelings about this new black belt a couple of thoughts came to mind: 1. You did not see to know that there are different Poomse forms being taught worldwide in Taekwondo. 2. Your evaluation of the new black belt was limited to only what you and your fellow students were required to learn. 3. Your instructors decision to allow the new student to wear the black belt did not meet with your approval. Before judging this new black belt give her some time to demonstrate those qualities that got her the black belt. Allow yourself to see her Taekwondo as a learning experience for you. Let you instructor ultimately decide her fate and either trust in that judgment or find a new school to practice in. Lastly I will relate my own experience in a similar situation when we had a new black belt join our school. His background was Moo Doo Kwan (spelling????). He did not know any of the Taegeuk poomse nor any of our self defense. As I watched this black belt practice I saw how good he really was and what an asset he was going to be to our school. Of course, he is learning the Taegeuk poomse and is not as good as some of the higher Gup ranks. I can see the black belt determination in him and he will pass them in quality of Poomse technique very shortly. As you can tell I was impressed with this outsider and admired the fact that other schools and kwans turn out some great black belts. My only wish is that more black belts like him would show up at our school for which I will benefit greatly. F Pitt wrote: > I am in a school > where we recently acquired a new TKD female "black belt" from Korea who > doesn't meet the black belt standards presented by our instructors. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Loucat101@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 14:12:49 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: fake BBs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net We have a lasy like that at our school...she's a red belt but will soon be Black Belt in Karate and she has no interest in Hanmudo, she just keeps trying to teach everyone how to do techniques the karate way. She's a nightmare, she's really vicious and she is really harsh on the kids. Most students just ignore her now, because even if we listen to her she doesn't teach us anything about Hanmudo. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:12:25 -0800 From: F Pitt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #117 - 8 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ray Terry, That was "Chon Ji" (spelling error on my part). So you're saying Tae Kwon Do utilizes different techniques and forms depending on what country/state/city?? they're from? I may be ignorant to the history then, but all the material I've read have been fairly identical as to what is practiced in the art. I will ask her about Koryo. Thank for the comment. the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: > kin Burdick > burdickd@indiana.edu > > From: Ray Terry > Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Black Belt, old issue > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 7:13:41 PST > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > > black belt student (issue was back in Sept. 2001). I am in a school > > where we recently acquired a new TKD female "black belt" from Korea who > > doesn't meet the black belt standards presented by our instructors. In > > fact, she did not even know Chung Ji Hyung and other colored belt forms... > > Chung Ji Hyung? Sorry, I wouldn't know that form either. If she is from > Korea she most likely would not have attended a dojang that practiced that > form. Could she do Koryo? > > Ray Terry > raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com > > -- __--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > The_Dojang mailing list > The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net > http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang > > It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. > US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 > 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org > > Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. > > Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply. > > Remember 9-11! > > End of The_Dojang Digest --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 01 Mar 2002 06:31:50 -0800 From: F Pitt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #118 - 11 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Judy, thanks for responding to my email. I was apparently bashed by other others on here about my "ego" etc., which is fine, after writing that note. I guess it would've helped me be more "respectful" if she were actually trying to learn as you and others who have responded have been doing. Perhaps I am too serious and don't seem to tolerate well when a person comes in and tends to play around a lot instead of really trying. That's the part that bugs me. For those who think I can learn from that, I can't, except to learn that paying attention and focusing (and TRYING) is the only thing that helps me slowly progress. Message: 2 Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 09:00:55 -0600 From: judy Organization: ACS To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re:Black Belt, old issue Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Think I'll jump in on this one as it has happened multiple times in our dojang. When a student of any rank wants to work out with us, our master "allows" them to retain their current rank till they are ready to test into our system. This makes life interesting at times. We have had many "black belts" from different styles come in, and per the above they are allowed to wear their rank as they "earned" it in their other style. But.... they are NOT allowed to run class!!! It is a disservice to the other students and to the "black belt" to put them in that position. Does it mean that they are not treated as a "black belt" (bowing and such) - NO, they earned the rank and it is respected as such by all. We too still do the Chang-hon patterns, so most WTF style black belts do not know them, that doesn't mean that they didn't earn their rank in their style, it just means that they are not a black belt in our style. Therefore - even tho they wear their black belt, they work out with the lower ranks till they have learned our techniques and forms, then and only then are they allowed to lead a group in class. Most have no problem with this, and over time learn our material. They then normally test for the same or next higher dan ranking with us if they wish to continue working out with us. Some choose to test into our system at 1st gup, then advance with the class to 1st dan from there. I am currently cross-training in another TKD style, my instructor their is doing it basically the same way. He allows me to retain my rank (even though I wanted to come in as a white belt), but I work out with the group that is at the level I am at. This allows me to learn the new material, be useful in ways I can, but still acknowledges the belt I earned elsewhere. I call it the best of all worlds. Just my two cents Judy Barnett 1st Dan, American NamSeo Kwan TKD t > > _________________________________________________________________ --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 02 Mar 2002 06:06:56 -0800 From: F Pitt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #119 - 13 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you all who have responded to the BB (old issue) post. It has been a learning experience and I think I've received enough input to put things into perspective and would like to give the whole issue a rest. :o) However, to repond to your question: No, she does not act like a snot, but she also does not appear sincere in learning either. She normally walks in at least 10-15 minutes late into the training (traning is 1 hr) and takes her spot. She comes once, sometimes twice per week. Throughout training, she is not serious about learning and gives up easily, laughing it away or shying out of performing a task. I don't know yet what style she was trained, but I haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe that she has had advanced training in any style yet (I want to ask (nicely :), about her training because I'm sure now that she didn't get that BB for nothing. Now, I empathize with her that she has to learn this new way, I just wish she'd be more serious, perhaps it will take time-- and encouragement from us. When the GM is speaking, she often ignores him and thereby doesn't perform how/what he is trying to teach. Unfortunately for her, he is beginning to focus more on those who are trying instead. She whines during drills and left the other day after saying something about wanting to "change her belt level." I told her she was learning quickly and doing well as I saw she felt badly. I like this girl, I respect her as a person, I enjoy working out with her when she is serious. And you all are right, I am learning from teaching her as well. I remain serious when we are teamed up and I think this is wearing off on her as I won't give in to playing around when I'm trying to learn to defend myself and all the other aspects that come along with learning the art. She appears to be a very nice person and I did not mean to bash her at the time of my former writing, but I did i guess. I know that as long as I work out with her, I will teach her everything I've learned and will refuse to give up when she does. Thank you. From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 14:31:36 EST I am awfully curious though...Does she act like a snot or does this person genuinely want to learn the material? Perhaps the lesson hidden in having this 'false' BB in the DoJang is to teach you about SELF-RESPECT. If you really believe that she is a phony, then strive to be the best you can be and don't let her lack of sincerity bother you and distract you from becoming the best student you can be. Truthfully, teaching is one of the best ways to learn... --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2002 09:37:35 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #119 - 13 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 03/02/2002 5:00:57 AM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Message: 1 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 28 Feb 2002 13:09:59 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Something other than the S Korean version, please Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Dakin: ".....documentation shows that Korean martial arts were very much like, if not identical to, Chinese martial arts up through the 1800s. When the Japanese took over the country, their martial arts came with them. After the end of World War II and the Chinese Revolution, Korean arts began mixing Japanese styles with the Chinese methods taught by Chinese refugees....." I have mounted this soapbox so many times I don't want to tax people with it again. What you are pointing out, though, is the foundation for a great deal of what I have been poking around for the last couple of years. 1.) WW II (Potsdam Conf) and the Korean War didn't just split the country but split the culture as well. Way too much of the Korean Martial traditions and their history have been focused on in-put of Japanese traditions owing to the Occupation. 2.) I would bet that the KMT of N Korea would be significantly different from the South, strikingly similar to Chinese traditions and much more representative of the Korean traditions as a whole than their Southern counterparts. 3.) I continue to wonder how it is that the Chinese influence continues to receive so little attention especially with the vast period of time during which Korea and China enjoyed close relations.>> To disallow the Chinese influence in the KMA is short sighted, not to mention wrong. What little research I have done indicates a strong link between the Northern styles of CMA and KMA. The influence can be seen in the Muye Dobo Tongji with the weapons, Jian-style swords that were made and used by Koreans, and the writings of General Qi, who was sent by the Chinese Emperor to Korea in the 16th Century to help them push out Japanese Pirates. However, I don't think the North Koreans are that willing to allow their native MA to be brought out to the world, assuming they still exist. Since the end of W.W.II, the North Koreans have been subjected to a Stalin-type cult of personality, all based around Kim IL Sung. To them, he was a God, and his word was Law. The question would be, would he allow MA to continue in his country without massive overview and micro-control? I doubt there's very many public dojangs in the North even now, in this day of "enlightenment." History taught in the North would have been alter to fit Kim's view, and anything to contradict that would either be destroyed or put somewhere out of sight. So it's not a matter of have only the South Korean view -- there may not be a North Korean view left that isn't skewed and twisted into something that bears even less truth then the South's version.... Craig --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest