Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 12:37:25 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #131 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Body Motion Stuff (Bruce Sims) 2. Dan test fees again (Richard Zaruba) 3. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #129 - 13 msgs (Laurie S.) 4. Ray (Laurie S.) 5. No Money (michael tomlinson) 6. Re: Whats a dollar worth? (Bruce Sims) 7. Complement; Black belt fee; Review of Tang Soo Do (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 8. Stirring the Pot= Hapkido versus ? (Ken McDonough) 9. Re: Complement; Black belt fee; Review of Tang Soo Do (Ray Terry) 10. More stuff along the way (Hapkido Self Defense Center) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 07:13:31 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Body Motion Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ken: ".....Lets face it. There are those Hapkido players who are at the top of their game. They live and breathe Hapkido, teach it, make a living out of it, and excel in it. Good stuff. Then there are the ham and eggers (like me) who merely dabble in it as a hobby and side line to other worthy endeavors, e.g, muscle cars, work, weight lifting, swimming, and so forth......" Many thanks for saying concisely what I have been wrestling to put into words since my (first) experience with M Wests' Internationale last February. Yes, the comeraderie is excellent, as is the tolerance, support, inofmation, supervision.... OK, you get the idea. But on a selfish note, there is always the question of "whats' in it for me", yes? I think you put your finger squarely on it. As a 3rd Degree BB I don't need someone telling me what to do to perform -- say-- "Four Directions Throw" (aka: Inside Throw, aka: Shihonage). Rather, I need to have someone with a practiced eye observe my body motion--- as I cannot--- and help me to adjust-out wasteful motion, improve my angles and vectors and generally polish not WHAT I do, but HOW I do it. After all isn't this why we encourage each other to make it to Seminars by the "old-timers" and identified personalities? Aren't we actually paying to have somebody who knows more than we do observe our biomechanics and then draw on their experience to make recommendations? I would think its the very same thing in TKD and TSD. Sometimes when I go to seminars I see folks on the edge of the mat sucking in the techniques and I suppose thats ok for them. For myself, being much like yourself Ken, not being able to eat, breath and live practice, I can't afford not to be out on the mat laying out what I do to scrutiny of someone better skilled than myself. This is going to be a crappy year for my practice and training. Family affairs have eclipsed a lot of the good things I want to do for my training and practice, and that bothers me some. But in another way it clarifies my purpose and helps me focus on the few opportunities I will be allowed. I can deal with that. :-). Best Wishes, Bruce (who is not a little envious of everyone who got to go to Jackson) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 09:46:51 -0600 From: Richard Zaruba To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Dan test fees again Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Prince, I have been in the situation of not having the money to test and, unlike Mr. Richards seemingly all encompassing observation; all of my extra money outside of living and education expenses was going to pay dues at my dojang. I got to go to the movie or for a meal with my wife when our parents sent us twenty dollars for birthday money. We were both students going to the university for our undergraduate degrees. We both worked thirty to forty hours a week in low paying jobs to pay living and education expenses. There are students that barely have the money to pay dues and some that do not even have that. Luckily my instructor allowed me to work off some fees by doing some jobs around the dojang; otherwise I did not have the money. There are cases where some people cry about not having money and then you see them blowing money on other things, but there are also those who truly don't have the money. Now I own the dojang that I trained in and I always judge each student separately, to do other wise is a sign of ignorance and stupidity. Sorry about my ranting and raving and back to the point, two questions come to mind about this situation. 1) Was the family told of the testing fee well in advance? Coming up with an extra $450 might be possible with a years notice but over a month could be very difficult or impossible. 2) Why are the testing and dues so high to begin with? I know of schools that cost half that with very highly reputable and capable instructors in a multitude of styles, and I don't remember Kukkiwon certification being that high before. If the instructor insists on the fee and the family honestly can't pay it. It sounds like they have no choice but to find a different dojang. My recommendation would be for them to find a WTF dojang and arrange with the chief instructor for the child to be instructed and evaluated over a period of three to six months with the idea of BB testing in mind. Find out what the testing fee will be and save the money up over the preceding months. If dues were $50 to $75 less it would be quite easy to save the required amount of money. Not having a full idea of the area and background this is about all I could recommend. Sincerely, Richard Zaruba _______________________________________________________________________ Richard Zaruba Department of Anatomy & Cell Biology University of North Dakota School of Medicine 501 North Columbia Road P.O. Box 9037 Grand Forks, ND 58202-9037 zaruba@medicine.nodak.edu 701.777.3952 office 701.777.2576 lab 701.777.2477 fax > I just got off the phone with mother who was inquiring if she should > pay for her 12 years black belt test which cost $450.00 not including > boards and belt. ( Yes it will be a Kukkiwon Certification) > > Her Background: > > She does not have much money and she was was given an ultimatum today > by the instructor that this is the cost to test, so its now or never. > > Her biggest concern is that she wants her child to continue his study > in TKD, but ultimately she does not have much to give. She already > paying 150.00 per month in this school ( name witheld). > > There are schools that gives out alternative, some school would rank > this child and be given a certificate under the school or proceed later > > to have a Kukkiwon certification...This however is NOT an option for > her. > > I wish I could assist but I do not know the child well enough to test > him. Can anyone advise me as to how I can assist her ? Thank you > all in advance for your attention regarding this matter. --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:56:50 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #129 - 13 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Mac wrote: <<<>>> Hey, Mac. hehehehe I decided to use my real name on the Digest lol. I put "Dizzy" next to it so people would know who I was :o) Eventhough I do TKD now, I still practice (and miss) my TSD forms. I'm about to learn Pyung Ahn Sa Dan on my own, the one I should have learned before I moved. I moved on the day of my brown belt test, so I decided to learn the next form anyway (and one-steps, ect). I'll save up for next year's trip so you can "correct me" on it lol. Tang Soo Mac. Dizzy yellow belt TKD (unofficially 4th gup TSD) _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Laurie S." To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 10:58:58 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Ray Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Oops. Sorry Ray. I forgot about the subject line. I hit 'send' before changing it Laurie (Dizzy). _________________________________________________________________ Join the world’s largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "michael tomlinson" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 16:17:23 +0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] No Money Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I totally understand the problem with the "cash flow" problem,, I had one student that couldn't afford the testing fee that month in Hapkido class but actually showed up two weeks later in a brand new Ford Excursion complete with all leather interior and a huge sound system complete with all the stacks of speakers in the back,,, I also had one Hapkido student who owed me two months tuition and then during class he told me he took his girlfriend to a steakhouse earlier in the week where the steaks were 25 dollars each without the side orders,, I ask this guy one time what he did for a living because he always showed up to class in a three piece suit and drove a brand new Ford Mustang GT,, he told me he was a financial planner!!!! Can you believe that, these kind of experiences can really sour you on why you spend so much of your free time teaching people for a very nominal fee, and then you are put into these situations. Michael Tomlinson _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:43:27 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Whats a dollar worth? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Charles and Prince: "..........she said her husband taught her a valuable lesson a long time ago that people that say they don't have money actually have a cash flow problem.....I've seen this over and over again with students in the past....you know, they can't afford your $40 in school seminar, then you see them at the movies that same weekend :-) Or show up next week at the dojang in a new SUV......" I just KNOW I am going to get into trouble for saying this, because at first glance it seems as though I am talking out of both sides of my mouth. I am sure that most people on the Net know I have some pretty strong feelings about commercialism in the MA, and thats on me. I don't lay that at anyone elses door. That said, let also say that I am 100% in total agreement with Charles about the cash-flow thing. Its truely a matter of priorities. As a former teacher of Social Studies in high school I remember quite clearly students who would not pop for paper and pens for class. These are the same folks who hired limos and ordered custom-tailored duds for prom night? For me, personally, my sword classes alone are $100/mo and does not include replacement costs for juk-to, cleaning of uniforms, $450 test fees, and sundry contributions to various causes around the school such as the odd Xmas gift to Kwan Jang Koo, birthdays and the like. Beleive me, there are times when would love to plead poverty, but it also has to do with priorities. At the junior college, students resist purchasing notebooks and uniforms and I regularly have students who want to "monitor" the class, one semester after another so they don't have to pay the $60 per 10 week semster. What is that!?! $60--- for ten weeks--- and a choice of either one --- or TWO classes a week?!? And they STILL balk! I don't pretend to know this mothers' circumstances, but my experience has been that it is a very common thing for someone to want the best bang for the buck. If she does not feel that the service she is getting for $150/mo is sufficient, then I would stop using that particular school. Despite certain trends in the MA, however, these classes are not intended as cheap child care, or respite time for harried mothers. Put aside the $5 a day ($35/week) or admit this is not the highest priority for her that it might be for her child. Just 1 persons' opinion. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 12:37:48 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Complement; Black belt fee; Review of Tang Soo Do Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Patrick wrote: > Your points seem to be in agreement with mine, save one depending on how you > define "complimentary". Do you mean complimentary as in Yin and Yang, or > as similar? Yes, we are in agreement. They complement each other like Um and Yang. Prince wrote: > I just got off the phone with mother who was inquiring if she should pay for her 12 years > black belt test which cost $450.00 not including boards and belt. ( Yes it will be a > Kukkiwon Certification) It is not an unexpected price in the TKD world. Yes, it is quite high (around here it runs $120 to test for black, and about $50 per month for commercial instruction), but dojos in NYC are around that from what I remember. I would say that it depends on what she wants to do. Personally, I'd put the money towards an academic tutor rather than the martial arts. Ray wrote: > Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 10, Number 4, 2001, p.102 > > Dakin reviewed Lee's "Tang Soo Do: The Ultimate Guide to the Korean > Martial Art". Good job Dakin... Thanks Ray. Unfortunately, Michael cut the very careful table I included with the review. If you're interested, I'll send it to the Digest. I mentioned it back in 8:624 (8 Nov 2001) but I think I forgot to post it! Yours in the arts, Dakin burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:39:42 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Stirring the Pot= Hapkido versus ? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Since many posters here subscribe to Hapkido training and are fresh from Master West's seminar, I raise an interesting subject. I think. Or, if not interesting, at least stirring the pot. How would a Hapkido player do against an Eskrima/Silat player ? How would a Hapkido player do against a Muay Thai Kick Boxer ? How would a Hapkido player do against a BJJ or grappler ? Or how would a Hapkido player do against a well trained and schooled Western Boxer ? Moreover, have any Hapkido players or Masters entered those gung ho Ultimate Fighting series or the more brutal figthing series in Japan (forget the name). Results ? Caveat: I am not denigrating any particular art, just curious on various opinions. Also, I am not supporting one art over the other. Just seeking objective opinions. Many thanks. McD... Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Complement; Black belt fee; Review of Tang Soo Do To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 12:07:19 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > Journal of Asian Martial Arts, Volume 10, Number 4, 2001, p.102 > > > > Dakin reviewed Lee's "Tang Soo Do: The Ultimate Guide to the Korean > > Martial Art". Good job Dakin... > > Thanks Ray. Unfortunately, Michael cut the very careful table I included > with the review. If you're interested, I'll send it to the Digest. I > mentioned it back in 8:624 (8 Nov 2001) but I think I forgot to post it! Yes, that would be great. But is it in ascii-art form? Attachments (e.g. Word, Powerpoint, Excel, etc) get stripped out while going thru the listserver (Mailman) software. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 15:27:00 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] More stuff along the way Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> He is correct. Another problem here in the Midwest (specifically here in Cincinnati) is the isolationist attitude. Many are more concerned with posturing and less concerned with training. For example, last month we had a 4 hour hapkido ground techniques workshop and Bruce drove 6 hours each way for this class yet the local folks often find a convenient excuse as to why they could not attend. But they will be happy to promote you through video tape, etc. It is so refreshing to go to Mississippi and see those who just want to practice. Just my opinion. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest