Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:02:36 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #136 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: O Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Korea's historical martial arts (Andrew Pratt) 2. Hankido seminar in Holland (Sun Mu Kwan-USA) 3. Training in more than 1 style. (john.a.mcintosh@bt.com) 4. Cheree/DD question (F Pitt) 5. RE: Boat Trip (Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov) 6. the-dojang.net (Ray Terry) 7. Fires and boats (Ray Terry) 8. Girly Boys and Watering Holes (Burdick, Dakin Robert) 9. Best Shot (Dunn, Danny J RASA) 10. OK Bruce, off the soap box (Ken McDonough) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Andrew Pratt" To: "dojang" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 18:38:42 +0900 Subject: [The_Dojang] Korea's historical martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Craig, Apologies for the slow response but I seem to be rather busy nowadays. You wrote in a recent dojang digest: > Second, where are you located? < Seoul, Korea. > Turtle Press (http://www.turtlepress.com/) has a two tape set. It's from them I obtained the tapes. < Thanks. I will investigate. > The reason why I thought the forms were done enmasse was the fact the forms were very linear. They were designed to train a large number a men at once -- all that would be needed was an open piece of ground. < The forms are indeed linear. It is very hard to practise them anywhere but outside. There are in fact various traditions running through the Muye Tobo T'ongji. The sections dealing with the spear-class of weapons mostly come from a Chinese military manual. These are the most obviously military in nature. Kyong Dang have recreated these techniques but I haven't learned them. There is a set of Chinese-derived techniques called Yedo. These are interpreted as short combinations of fighting techniques. The long patterns that we are talking about predominately come from the Korean (e.g. Pon'guk-kom) and Japanese (waegom) derived forms. The Japanese-derived forms are supposed to reflect the techniques contained in several Japanese schools (one school per pattern?). It is unclear why the patterns are so long and linear. > In that same context, I can't see the officers carrying and using some of the weapons -- the long bamboo spear, for example. < yes, the spear-class weapons are for the mass conscripts (aka cannon fodder) while the swords would have been reserved for the officers. By the same token, the number of officers required would have been relatively small, thus reducing the need for patterns designed for mass-demonstrations. > That's what the little research I have done indicates. I'm a regular over at swordforum.com, and some discussion on the Chinese sword board has centered on a General Qi, who help repel the Japanese pirates from Korea in the late 16th century. The good general was an innovator, and there is some indication that his manuals were used by the Koreans. < Er, General Qi? There are probably many General Qis. Without the full name I can not be sure who you are referring to. :-) One General Ch'i Chi-kuang helped control the pirate problem on China's east coast. He summarised his techniques in the Chi-hsiao hsin-shu. The Chinese army led by Li Ju-sung were trained using this manual. It is this manual that the Korean's copied into the Muye Tobo T'ongji. The 'Japanese pirates' you refer to were probably the 50,000 strong army sent by Hideyoshi to invade Korea and China. > Also, the swords used by the Koreas before adapting the Katana-style swords intrigue me. It is my belief that Chinese-style swords were the dominate form, but Koreans are known for adapting the design of the sword to the warrior, as oppose to adopting the warrior to the sword. It is mentioned in the Muye Tobo T'ongji that a couple of the sword forms are practiced with a single bladed sword for reason of safety, implying that the original form used a twin-bladed sword, which is what you discovered in the Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i. BTW -- is there an English translation of the Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i available? < I would have thought that most fighters would adapt the design of the weapon to the type of fighting they engaged in and their physical characteristics. The main issue here is that the Korean physic tends to be larger than the Japanese frame. This allows the Korean weapon to be larger than the Japanese katana. As to the Wubeich'i, it is a huge book. As far as I know it is not being translated, and given its size, it is unlikely ever to be translated. > I would expect that the forms would be done in full armor -- if for nothing else, to get the soldiers use to wearing the armor. Armor tends to be more restrictive and more practicable -- anything that would have interfered with the soldier's ability to fight, such as the flowing robes used by the members of the Kyung Dang Demo team, would have been eliminated. < I don't think the Korean military had 'full armour' at this time. During the 3 kingdoms period there was a plate metal (bronze, iron?) suit but I don't know how widely it was worn. More typical were heavy leather(?) jackets with metal studs or plates sewn into it. By the period we are discussing, only the latter clothing remained. The flowing robes were for formal guard duty and not for serious fighting. It should be noted that in the Muye Tobo T'ongji there are no illustrations of fighting people in flowing robes. The only time the robe appears is in a descriptive piece about formal clothing. Everyone else is in light clothing. > have gone farther. I believe that there's a market for a series of tapes that would teach the Muye Tobo T'ongji forms, as well as explore the history and construction of the weapons used. < But I think that is another debate: the advantages and dangers of teaching videos not backed by instructors. Personally, I think that would not be productive or in the best interests of Kyong Dang. As to the history of the weapons I am not sure the Kyong Dang people are the best people are the best people to ask. The military museum in Seoul probably be a better authority. > I am interested in these older forms, and since I am a bit far from the dojang I consider my primary, I want to explore these forms for my own personal enjoyment. With today's explosion of McDojangs, the roots of these martial arts are shoved aside in favor of the $$$. I think it is up to those who see the martial arts as something more then something to make a living to explore and preserve these forms. The people who are involved in the Kyung Dang should be commended and encouraged for bringing these forms back to life. < I think it is more that the founder of Kyung Dang was not well liked by the authorities (he was apparently labelled a 'leftist' during the military regimes) and this presumably limited the art's expansion. I also expect that, like Kohapdo, the art has been brushed aside by more popular sword arts like standard Komdo and Haidong Gumdo. Regards, Andrew --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 02:13:11 -0800 (PST) From: Sun Mu Kwan-USA To: Dojang digest Subject: [The_Dojang] Hankido seminar in Holland Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Klaas Barends of the Netherlands HKD Federation has posted some wonderful pictures of an on-going seminar being conducted in Holland by Master Ko Back Yong (IHF 9th dan). Master Ko is one of GM Myong's senior students and he help develop the art of hankido. Their website address is: http://www.hapkido.nl ===== Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: john.a.mcintosh@bt.com To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:33:51 -0000 Subject: [The_Dojang] Training in more than 1 style. Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net "For those of you that have trained in more than one style, what elements made you remain in one style versus the other?" I have trained in a number of styles/systems and was faithful to the style I was training, but with one thing and another, I have moved around a bit; Shotokan Karate - Club closed when the instructor was diagnosed with cancer and gave up teaching. Shotokan Karate - Club started changing to a new style which was sport-oriented. Aikido - Instructor moved to a new area for a new job. Hapkido - Left when the Chief Instructor started handing out black belts like toffees. Muay Thai - Instructor kicked out of health club after an argument with the management. At the moment I'm not training in any particular art (solo training) but I am looking for a new club, I would like it to be Hapkido but I live in Scotland and the only choices that I have are with the Association that I left because black belts were being handed out like toffees. Hopefully I will be able to find something suitable, if not does anyone have any suggestions for a frustrated Scot? Thanks in advance, John Mc Intosh --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 05:52:04 -0800 From: F Pitt To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Cheree/DD question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I asked one of my instructors today when I was going to learn self defence. He replied "at red belt". What?!?!?!?!?! That's one belt (or two grades before black belt). In TSD, we learned (well the adults anyways) self defence from the beginning. One steps also. Here (TKD) they don't learn even one steps till green belt. What's up with that? I am also in TKD, but in our school I have been learning self-defense techniques since I began as a white belt. We all pretty much learn the same techniques. As a white belt I couldn't perform some of the techniques higher ranking belts could perform, so I was asked to practice on something easier. Nevertheless, if a new student in our school can perform certain higher techniques, they are encouraged to do so. I guess it depends on the instructor. I don't understand how an instructor can say you don't get to learn self defense until one becomes a red belt. I thought all of what we learn in TKD is part of self-defense? (Does that mean you don't get to spar, or what??) Anyway, good luck. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Bruce.Sims@med.va.gov To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 08:02:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Boat Trip Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Laurie: "......You really are not losing anything by starting over (although it stinks, I know) You can't undo knowledge. What you have learned is yours to keep and you can use it to supplement future training......" Just a quick note to echoe Chreees' comment. You are not, in fact, losing anything by starting over. The whole idea of "beginning" and "ending" a MA career is an illusion born of commerce in which discrete sections of time are identified and parceled out for a fee. Life itself does not work this way. A good simile' would be the way that American Indians looked at the Europeans like they were crazy when the new-comers to the American west spoke in terms of "owning" a piece of land. How does one own a piece of land, or sky, or water? The idea of attaching a monetary or educational meaning to a particular segment of time is a contrivance many accept for the convenience of commerce. Perhaps you might find it a bit more comfortable to consider your MA/MT career as a kind of white-water rafting trip with both fast and slow periods, times of boredom, fear, excitement and sadness. Using this approach I would characterize starting at a new school as little more than pushing-off in my raft for that days' trip having stopped comfortably for the night before. Just a thought. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net (The_Dojang) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 06:22:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [The_Dojang] the-dojang.net Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You may now reach the user admin page for the_dojang subscribers by going to http://the-dojang.net. This is the same page as http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang, just less to type. Ray --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 8:25:00 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Fires and boats Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Perhaps you might find it a bit more comfortable to consider your MA/MT > career as a kind of white-water rafting trip with both fast and slow > periods, times of boredom, fear, excitement and sadness. Using this approach > I would characterize starting at a new school as little more than > pushing-off in my raft for that days' trip having stopped comfortably for > the night before. Just a thought. Reminds me of a quote, forgive me for not getting it entirely correct or recalling the author, but... the mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be lit. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 10:18:57 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Girly Boys and Watering Holes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken wrote: > I am trying to get away from all this mutual admiration society stuff, e.g., > "Oh, John, you threw me so nice. > > Common peoples !!! Starting to remind me of the feminization of the > military. Well, I guess we know where Ken is coming from! I frankly am one of those who likes to be polite, so actually Ken, I've only been in one fight in my 22 years in the arts (I'm a pretty nice guy, and I avoid the bars, so it's not that hard to avoid them) and in that fight I never threw a punch (he was a head taller than me, pushed me back, and then started getting worried when I calmly took off my backpack and waited for him to come in again). > I want some down and dirty stories and how you got your rear ends out of a > sling using your arts in the real world. I'm polite and work hard, and hopefully will continue to do well in the professional world. I try to stay out of court. > Why, I had a martial arts instuctor in Korea who would go down to T Street > in Pusan, and he would test his skills on the Russians in the bars. He was > an ex-Marine. He would come home with blood and tell his wife that wrist > lock # three works. Then he would go to the GI bars run by the Korean > Mafia and take on a few of the bouncers. He was truly a guy practicing his > art in the real world. Forget about etiquette for him !! That's nice. It's not what I'm into though. I'd rather go home and read books to my kids. > I want some good stories like the time you were in a flea bag hotel and > made > your way to a local watering spot and three guys from the docks were trying > to shake you down. What did you do ? Ok. Here's one. I practice in the morning (8 am) before going to work. Today we had a blast. My partner and I worked on our strikes first, then started sparring. His foot sweeps weren't getting me today, but neither were my hip tosses when I got in close. We ended up in the floor. I had him in a guillotine but decided not to break his neck. He did a fingerlock on me, reversed it, and when for a paintbrush. I bit his arm and whacked him in the back of his head a couple times. He didn't feel it, because of the adrenaline rush. I poked a finger against his goggles and he turned his head away. He tapped me in the teeth with his elbow a couple times and I decided to tap. We got up, shook hands, and did it again. I got to work a little after nine and told the secretary, "I have a fat lip and I feel great!" They know me, so she just said "uh-huh" and went back to work. And Ken, is there a reason you don't want women in the Dojang? I kinda like having them there! Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu --__--__-- Message: 9 From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 09:27:22 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Best Shot Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hey, Lets not forget speed, too! Who's the fastest draw and shoot. And who has the largest magazine capacity. If you can draw fast and shoot 15 times or more, thats got to cut down on the best shot edge!!! Danny Dunn > According to my latest discussion with Ray, it depends on who is the best > shot:) Yes sir!! Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2002 07:58:44 -0800 (PST) From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] OK Bruce, off the soap box Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Bruce, you noted in part: Response: Won't argue the above. If I did I would get "Mentally" lamblasted. Actually, I think it is great that Master West has pulled together martial artists from the U.S. and abroad to have these gatherings. What a fine Ambassador he is. A down home kind of guy--although he is from Queens and upstate New York. He is the right person to help sift the Korean Martial Arts sense from the nonsense. Also think it is great people can subsequently talk about it. But, I also used to like Don Rickles, Shecky Green, and Jackie Leonard. So love the insult humor. Too bad Andrew Dice Clay material is not available for me. "Hickory Dickory Dock..." By the way Bruce, you work for the VA. I just applied for a position with them with the office of Inspector General. Dunno what the prospects are but parallels my career field in health administration and law. So, Ray--do I get a kudo for my middle of the road, nice guy, do not rock the boat response. Peace, McD... Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest