Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:22:05 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #141 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Women in the MA (kSullivan) 2. feminization of the DD (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 3. Words... (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 4. 500th Rally (Ray Terry) 5. Ok kids... (Ray Terry) 6. Patience (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 7. What a heel (Ray Terry) 8. Oooooppppsss (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 9. Gm Ji in Cancun? (Ray Terry) 10. Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #140 - 13 msgs (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 11. Re: Training idea (S. H. WEE) 12. Re: Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #140 - 13 msgs (Ray Terry) 13. BB promotion, re to Master Timmerman (David & Juleen Wheeler) 14. Re: Korea's historical martial arts (Creed71963@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "kSullivan" To: "Dojang Digest" Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:07:08 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Women in the MA Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Ken McDonough To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Women In Dojangs = a non-chauvinistic approach (if u catch my drift) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net This lady walked into the Dojang and wanted to take lessons. The instructor told me that she would be my partner. I told the instructor "You pairing me up with another dame ?" My instructor, in his most Budhist wisdom, said "When you learn to deal with your anger toward women you will truly be a great martial artist...until then you are a stereotypical male chauvinist from Times Square..." I shrugged, but accepted my fate. We started doing the basic stuff, re: Ki Bohn Soos, Sohn Mohk Soo, and a little Maek Cha Ki. I liked this chick. She was a class act ! I would let her carry my uniform if she wanted. Not being totally male chauvinistic-- I believed in equal opportunity. Soon we were buds in and outside the DoJang. She took as much as I gave, and one time kicked me in my family jewels (when I was not lookin of course). Ken, I like a good joke as well as the next person, and have even been known to inject a little sarcasm here and there, but please, a little consideration. The tasteless diatribes on everything from drinking to women are getting a little old. I respect your right to free speech and thus have held my tongue lo these many years, but aren't there better places to carry on about these irrelevancies? It is really getting quite old and unfunny. How about a discussion of martial arts? MA technique? MA courtesy and mutual respect? ---Kim <<<>>> --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:02:53 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] feminization of the DD Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/11/02 12:03:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Ken wrote: > I am trying to get away from all this mutual admiration society stuff, e.g., > "Oh, John, you threw me so nice. > > Common peoples !!! Starting to remind me of the feminization of the > military. >> Oh, Ken, You throw nice chauvinistic bull... --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:43:06 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Words... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Can some wonderful person on the DD tell me what the Korean words (the skewed English spellings...not Hangul, please) for the following: Silence Beauty Slowly Thank you in advance... --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:26:55 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] 500th Rally Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Weekly Anti-Japan Protest Marks 500th Rally March 12, 2002 The anti-Japanese "Wednesday Protest," staged by former "comfort women" and their supporters, broke the record for the longest-running protest, as they mark their 500th consecutive week of demonstrations on Wednesday (March 12). Protestors from a group, the Korean Council for Women Drafted for Military Sexual Slavery by Japan, have been rallying in front of the Japanese Embassy in Seoul every Wednesday since 1992, to condemn Japan for refusing to acknowledge its past war crimes. The first protest was on Jan. 8, 1992, when then Japanese prime minister Kiichi Miyazawa came to Seoul. The group demanded that the Japanese government admit to mobilizing Korean and other Asian women to serve as sex slaves to Japanese soldiers at frontline brothels. They also demanded compensation from the Japanese government. The protest has continued every week since then, and now it is officially the longest running demonstration. The group, also called Jeongdaehyeop in Korea, says around 25,000 people, have taken up the comfort women's cause over the years and manned the Wednesday Protest. They include kindergarten children who came with their parents or grandparents, and people in their 80s, many of whom were victims themselves. Activists and human rights advocates from all over the world, even from Japan, have joined the Korean protesters. Although the protests were started by former comfort women, they have grown to symbolize Korea's general outrage at Japan. The 1910-45 colonial era continues to disrupt Korean-Japanese relations. Tokyo's approval last spring of textbooks that many feel whitewash Japan's past aggressions, and Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's paying of respects at a shrine where some war criminals are buried a few months later, added fuel to the Wednesday Protests. Peaceful demonstrations in front of the Japanese Embassy near Gwanghwamun often turn into scuffles between young riot policemen and elderly protesters. A law was passed to prohibit a rally within 100 meters of a foreign mission, and layers of riot police cordon off the entire area during sensitive times such as state visits by the Japanese prime minister. The former comfort women are elderly and frail but they have succeeded in raising awareness of their plight and in moving the shame from themselves to the men of the Japanese empire who grabbed teenage girls away from their families and repeatedly raped them. Jeongdaehyeop is planning special events to mark the 500th protest. It will hold a photo exhibit of its past rallies and display congratulatory messages and letters of encouragement it has been receiving. The location for the commemorative events has yet to be announced. --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:37:52 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Ok kids... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ok kidz... Face it. Ken is, well, Ken. No two ways about it. Yes, I filter out some of his "creativity", but I also let some of it through just to liven things up a bit. But don't take it sooo seriously. I don't think he does. At least I hope not. If he does, then perhaps we should request that Congress make the Air Force keep him in for another 20 years just to wear him down a slight bit more. I mean, don't you all feel safer knowing that he is out there protecting us? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:58:37 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Patience Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Tyranmarla wrote: << When you are required to train a fellow student, what makes you lose patience with them the most? Trying to get them to understand the forms? Getting them to think? Trying to get them to concentrate? I really would like to know so that I can be a student who is easier to train. I have asked lots of questions about how to understand the teaching methods of SOME black belts, and I have only been given 1 positive response. I am not thin skinned, I just want to learn how to understand the higher ranks.>> If you really feel that slighted then perhaps it is not the place for you. Geesh, from the emotional plea you make in your e-mail, it sounds as if it's not the place for anyone... Have you discussed the situation with your instructor? I don't personally like students that say things like, "Oh, I learned it ANOTHER way at my OLD school." Other than that I don't expect more from the person than their personal best. And that seriously varies from student to student. --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:50:45 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] What a heel Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Ray, > Have you ruled out a problem with your sciactic nerve? > > george > > > > >Anyone else ever encounter this? > > > >I've recently developed a tightness along the back of the right leg. e.g. > >when going into a front stance there is a very sharp sensation in the > >rear/bottom of the right heel. Not in the portion of the Achilles to the > >rear of the ankle, but farther down in the heel. It feels like a knife is > >being stabbed into this area of the heel. The pain isn't really all that > >bad, just rather uncomfortable. I don't recall an injury or feeling like > >I pulled a hamstring during a recent workout. Strange... George wins! Yes, it appears that I have Sciatica. Just back from a medical consultation where I was advised to halt all martial arts activity until this gets better. Now many would claim after seeing me in action that what I do would never really pass for martial arts, but it is still not what I wanted to hear. Bummer... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:04:39 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Oooooppppsss Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net <> My biggest challenge is the student who thinks he knows it all, and instead of listening to a correction on techniques, he says "I know" or a brand new student who is always saying "I know". <> Oh man. I was once that student...My instructors should certainly have been granted Sainthood... --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 19:56:21 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Gm Ji in Cancun? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net How goes the plans for the May seminar with Gm Ji down in Cancun? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 22:19:52 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #140 - 13 msgs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In reply to Tyranmarla, Mr. Timmerman wrote: << When you first start training, there are many basic things you must absorb. Perhaps your questions get in the way of learning what is important right now. >> Basics. AKA: fundamentals, building-blocks, essentials... I have gotten so tired of students asking to learn new material when they have not yet mastered BASICS, that I will make them perform them until they are ready to cry. Why is it that people who can't seem to hold a decent front stance for more than 2 seconds will continuously ask to learn other material??? Hmmm. Here's a winner. How about the parents who want to know why little Billy So-And-So isn't on the test list??? Sorry...that comment struck a nerve. I needed to rant...you just added a month or two of life to the old punching bag. --__--__-- Message: 11 From: "S. H. WEE" To: Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Training idea Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:53:03 +0800 Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Louise, Here is Southeast Asia, we have a similar game that called "Sepak Takraw". Its basically volley ball using your feet and a little rattan ball. Play the game two times a week and you will notice significant improvement in your kickings. Regards, S. H. Wee shinhoe@pc.jaring.my > Message: 4 > From: Loucat101@aol.com > Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2002 13:12:41 EST > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [The_Dojang] Training idea > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > This is just an idea I had this morning...I was bored so I tried to kick a > ball of paper (about 1 inch wide i guess) through the doorway (about 32 > inches wide) and it was really hard...to a) actually make contact with the > ball and b) aim it through the door. So I got a tennis ball and practised > using that...then a golf ball...then back to the paper ball and I got it > through. I guess you could do this with any kicking technique but I thought > it would be good practise for aiming, coordination and reflexes. > This is probably a really old method...just thought I'd share it with you :) > Louise --__--__-- Message: 12 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #140 - 13 msgs To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 20:31:37 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Sorry...that comment struck a nerve. I needed to rant... And my rant is UPDATE THE SUBJECT LINE. Back to stretching now... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "David & Juleen Wheeler" To: Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 21:43:00 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] BB promotion, re to Master Timmerman Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Master Timmerman I completely agree with you regarding fast promotion. In our KSW class, I would say that the average for an adult is around 3 years to 1st Dan, and another 4 years after that to Second, and 5 years after that to 3rd Dan, though times very between each person. I tell my students it's better to learn slowly and completely then fast and superficial. I feel that the difference between and martial artist and a hobbyist is the amount of time and determination one puts into his training. Respectfully David Wheeler KSW --__--__-- Message: 14 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 23:51:13 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Korea's historical martial arts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: "Andrew Pratt" >>Dear Craig, Apologies for the slow response but I seem to be rather busy nowadays.<< No problem. I'm glad you responded. It's great to talk to someone who has more then a passing knowledge on this area. Please note that my replies are cobbled together from bits and pieces, along with some thinking on my part. I freely admit I maybe wrong and welcome any correction. >>>Turtle Press (http://www.turtlepress.com/) has a two tape set. It's from them I obtained the tapes.< Thanks. I will investigate.<< This are the webpages: http://www.turtlepress.com/RelatedProduct.asp?CODE=MYT1 http://www.turtlepress.com/RelatedProduct.asp?CODE=MYT2 The blurb from the back of the videotape box: "In this fascinating set of tapes, the National Demonstration team of Kyung Dang, led by Grandmaster Im Dong-kyu, reenacts the sword, stick and empty hand arts of the classic Korean Martial arts manual, Muyo Dobo Tongji. Practiced by the King's special Forces, the arts of Kwon Bup, Ssang Soo Do, Wol Do, Wae Gum, Bon Guk Gum, Jae Dok Gum, Kong Bang, and Ki Chang were adopted by Korean warriors during the Yi Dynasty. This is a fascinating look at the ancient martial arts of Korea. >>>The reason why I thought the forms were done enmasse was the fact the forms were very linear. They were designed to train a large number a men at once -- all that would be needed was an open piece of ground.< The forms are indeed linear. It is very hard to practise them anywhere but outside. There are in fact various traditions running through the Muye Tobo T'ongji. The sections dealing with the spear-class of weapons mostly come from a Chinese military manual. These are the most obviously military in nature. Kyong Dang have recreated these techniques but I haven't learned them. There is a set of Chinese-derived techniques called Yedo. These are interpreted as short combinations of fighting techniques. The long patterns that we are talking about predominately come from the Korean (e.g. Pon'guk-kom) and Japanese (waegom) derived forms. The Japanese-derived forms are supposed to reflect the techniques contained in several Japanese schools (one school per pattern?). It is unclear why the patterns are so long and linear.<< I'm guessing the linear form of the hyungs is to keep students learning the form from accidentally hitting the guy next to him. As for the length, I'm also thinking the forms in the Muyo Dobo Tongji are the basic training a recruit would have once they were in the army. The Muyo Dobo Tongji forms teach the basics -- strikes, blocks, and general handling of the weapon. After that, I'm guessing that the soldier would develop his own style with assigned weapon. >>>In that same context, I can't see the officers carrying and using some of the weapons -- the long bamboo spear, for example.< yes, the spear-class weapons are for the mass conscripts (aka cannon fodder) while the swords would have been reserved for the officers. By the same token, the number of officers required would have been relatively small, thus reducing the need for patterns designed for mass-demonstrations.<< I disagree with you on the number of officers that would be needed. Warfare at that time was basic line of sight -- an officer's control of a battlefield situation was as far as his voice could carry. Also, you would have sergeants (or their Korean equivalent) helping the officer, who, I doubt, would be equipped with spear class weapons. Sword would mark the soldier as an officer or NCO. Does anyone have an idea of what the structure of a Chinese/Korean military unit @ 1595 would have been? (TOE, command structure, ect.) That would help solve this question.... >>That's what the little research I have done indicates. I'm a regular over at swordforum.com, and some discussion on the Chinese sword board has centered on a General Qi, who help repel the Japanese pirates from Korea in the late 16th century. The good general was an innovator, and there is some indication that his manuals were used by the Koreans.< Er, General Qi? There are probably many General Qis. Without the full name I can not be sure who you are referring to. :-) One General Ch'i Chi-kuang helped control the pirate problem on China's east coast. He summarised his techniques in the Chi-hsiao hsin-shu. The Chinese army led by Li Ju-sung were trained using this manual. It is this manual that the Korean's copied into the Muye Tobo T'ongji. The 'Japanese pirates' you refer to were probably the 50,000 strong army sent by Hideyoshi to invade Korea and China.<< I'm guessing this is a different spelling of the same name, but I have General Qi's name as General Qi Jiguang. >From Thomas Chen, on the SwordForum.com message boards: ***** General Qi Jiguang was known to beat the Japanese pirates in 1561 at Taizhou on one occasion, capturing the leader and 1900 POWs. He obtained Japanese swordsmanship techniques after interrogating them, in other words after torturing them. This form he came up with was used to train his troops to counter the Japanese. As the Art of War says: " Know your enemy, know yourself, in a hundred battles, you will never be in danger...." ***** >>Also, the swords used by the Koreas before adapting the Katana-style swords intrigue me. It is my belief that Chinese-style swords were the dominate form, but Koreans are known for adapting the design of the sword to the warrior, as oppose to adopting the warrior to the sword. It is mentioned in the Muye Tobo T'ongji that a couple of the sword forms are practiced with a single bladed sword for reason of safety, implying that the original form used a twin-bladed sword, which is what you discovered in the Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i. BTW -- is there an English translation of the Mao Yuen-yi's Wubeich'i available?< I would have thought that most fighters would adapt the design of the weapon to the type of fighting they engaged in and their physical characteristics. The main issue here is that the Korean physic tends to be larger than the Japanese frame. This allows the Korean weapon to be larger than the Japanese katana.<< But In Japan, the dominant Sword design was the katana -- almost every (if not every) Japanese sword style was based on the strengths of that sword design, just as the styles used by the Chinese were based on the jian and dao designs. Yes, there are several variants of the jian and dao designs but there still retain the basic design -- the jian being a double-edge, straight sword, while the dao is a curved, single-edge, design. You don't see Chinese MAs using a katana, or Japanese MAs using a jian or dao -- the other's sword styles and designs are foreign to their martial arts. But Koreans would adopt whatever sword design they felt comfortable with. Before the 16th century, their sword designs and styles were based on Chinese and their own indigenous arts. Only after the Japanese invasions of the late 16th century do you see any of the katana designs surface in KMA, and even then there are differences, based on what you said about the Korean's physical advantage. Because they were between the two countries, Korean MAs are a blend of both Chinese and Japanese, with local influence and adoptions. I have seen pictures of both jians and katanas that the Koreans have adopted for their own use, and there are differences. >>As to the Wubeich'i, it is a huge book. As far as I know it is not being translated, and given its size, it is unlikely ever to be translated.<< Which I think is a great pity. It would be interesting to see how the Korean's Muyo Dobo Tongji compares to the Wubeich'i and help sort out the differences between the two. >>>I would expect that the forms would be done in full armor -- if for nothing else, to get the soldiers use to wearing the armor. Armor tends to be more restrictive and more practicable -- anything that would have interfered with the soldier's ability to fight, such as the flowing robes used by the members of the Kyung Dang Demo team, would have been eliminated.< I don't think the Korean military had 'full armor' at this time. During the 3 kingdoms period there was a plate metal (bronze, iron?) suit but I don't know how widely it was worn. More typical were heavy leather(?) jackets with metal studs or plates sewn into it. By the period we are discussing, only the latter clothing remained. The flowing robes were for formal guard duty and not for serious fighting. It should be noted that in the Muye Tobo T'ongji there are no illustrations of fighting people in flowing robes. The only time the robe appears is in a descriptive piece about formal clothing. Everyone else is in light clothing.<< I'm assuming there was armor of some type -- granted, not the Samurai type armor, but maybe the heavy leather you mentioned. I could be wrong, so if anyone can add to this, please chime in. >>I believe that there's a market for a series of tapes that would teach the Muye Tobo T'ongji forms, as well as explore the history and construction of the weapons used.< But I think that is another debate: the advantages and dangers of teaching videos not backed by instructors. Personally, I think that would not be productive or in the best interests of Kyong Dang. As to the history of the weapons I am not sure the Kyong Dang people are the best people are the best people to ask. The military museum in Seoul probably be a better authority.<< I concede the point about the dangers of teaching videos not backed by instructors. But I still think there should be more videos about these weapons, for informational purposes if nothing else. You have KMA Schools and Organizations teaching Nunchucks as a 'Korean Weapon,' which is like claiming pizza is a 'Korean food staple.' Besides Haedong Gumdo, to the best of my knowledge, Kuk Sool and Hwang Rang Do teach weapons as something more then an adjunct to the empty hand part of their art. (I'm sure there are others, but I have no knowledge of them.) I think the Kyong Dang can help offset the image that some people have of the KMAs being nothing more then rehashed JMAs. As for using a Historical authority like the military museum in Seoul, why not? I think a student should learn something about the development of the weapon they're learning to use, and maybe Kyong Dang people are not the best people to ask. I can't speak for anyone else, but wouldn't mind a little lecture with my weapons demonstration...... >>I am interested in these older forms, and since I am a bit far from the dojang I consider my primary, I want to explore these forms for my own personal enjoyment. With today's explosion of McDojangs, the roots of these martial arts are shoved aside in favor of the $$$. I think it is up to those who see the martial arts as something more then something to make a living to explore and preserve these forms. The people who are involved in the Kyung Dang should be commended and encouraged for bringing these forms back to life.< I think it is more that the founder of Kyung Dang was not well liked by the authorities (he was apparently labelled a 'leftist' during the military regimes) and this presumably limited the art's expansion. I also expect that, like Kohapdo, the art has been brushed aside by more popular sword arts like standard Komdo and Haidong Gumdo.<< From what little I know of South Korean Politics during the military regimes, suggesting telling the North Koreans the time of day would be enough to get blacklisted...^_^ Maybe the place for Kyung Dang to expand is not in South Korea, but outside the country. Several other arts have done it, so why not? Lastly, I am not familiar with Kohapdo. Can you tell me anything about it? Craig --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest