Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:22:00 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #169 - 14 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ChosonDo Stuff (Bruce Sims) 2. tradition and doctors (Hapkido Self Defense Center) 3. Re: Meet my training buddy, Harvey.... (Bruce Sims) 4. tickle (ABurrese@aol.com) 5. Re: Advice for a new person... (Jim Griffin) 6. women's self defense (jerseyj) 7. Re: Training partners (Bruce Sims) 8. Absorb what is useful (Ray Terry) 9. RE: Aikido [was: [The_Dojang] muscle mem (Kirk Lawson) 10. RE: Hapkido...and Aikido Th (Kirk Lawson) 11. TKD / Hand strikes (Bert Edens) 12. Instructor in Wurzburg, Germany (Ward, Jon) 13. Hapkido...and Aikido Thoughts (Randall Sexton) 14. RE:ACL Reconstruction (ericules) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:30:50 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ChosonDo Stuff Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ian: Thanks for the information on the art that you practice. I had not observed an art characterized as a "civil" art but Andrew Pratt will tell you that I hold the belief that there is much more to the role of this sort of approach to establishing what we now identify as KMA than perhaps has been given due credit in the past. Would you mind a couple of follow-up questions. 1.) Many of the arts you identify as contributing to ChosonDo and its curriculum would, at first blush appear to be at odds with other curriculum. Are there unifying principals which help integrate the contributions of disparate arts to the corpus of your art? In Hapkido we have the Three Pillars. Are there similar tenents that help coalesce your material into a single art? 2.) As a "civil" art, do weapons, if any, play a role in the learning of the art, or only as adjuncts to its practical application. By this I mean that in Aikido, for instance, sword is often seen less as a practical weapon in its own right and more of a training tool (IME). 3.) Is ChosonDo recognized as an art within a larger umbella organization (KIDOHAE?) or does it maintain its own hierarchy and management independent of other organizations? Either way, how do you maintain levels of quality in instruction and service to practitioners? Are there standard test requirements, recommended curriculum, or consensus from a board to maintain the integrity of the art? Thanks in advance for your patience. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:29:07 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] tradition and doctors Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I read Daken's post and I must comment. This is I was taught as the definitions of traditional and modern arts: Tradition, does not mean it is 300 years old, because of the Japanese occupation, that did not happen. Nevertheless, I was taught that tradition is honor, dignity and sacrifice (if you are unsure of personal sacrifice in hapkido talk to Master West about his first hapkido teachers). I understand it sounds cliché - but I have not heard of a better definition. Modern arts are founded by a respected authority who developed a style based on a VERY strong foundation. Doctors, I first posted that comment about the lower 50% of all doctors (I was quoting an Uncle who is a retied MD - the kind that made house calls), but I must ad that I will only go to the top 2% anyway, after all, I am paying the bill... Just my opinion... Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:45:44 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Meet my training buddy, Harvey.... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Jere: "..... This is based on the premise that the technique is the same if you have a partner or practice alone. These days I must shake my head when a hapkido student tells me they can't practice at home without a partner......" Have you been to see "A BEAUTIFUL MIND"? The character of John Nash has suddenly made having imaginary friends very popular. However I never thought that I would find myself elevated to among Nobel laureates!! :-) Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:32:37 EST From: ABurrese@aol.com To: Subject: [The_Dojang] tickle Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net >>So I tickled her. Damn she went wild to get me to >>stop - and she didn't quit or poop out until she got >>me off. That's what I was trying to get her to do in >>the first place - just not stop or give up. (and I >>was trying hard to control her) You do have to fight >>like a wild cat, giving it your all, trying >>everything you can and not stop. It was very >>effective on me. >> >>Take care, >> Mac Great way to illustrate that point! That's the same thing I try and get accross when I talk about giving your cat fluffy a bath. You need to be like that cat that doesn't want to be in the tub. Tickle example is a good one. Of course, you can get away with tickling your wife a bit better than students in class. :-) Yours in Training, Alain www.burrese.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Jim Griffin" To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:42:15 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Advice for a new person... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Greetings! Welcome to the list and to TKD. While I am by no means an expert, I'd advise you not to believe everything you read (with regard to TKD's "weak" hand techniques). In competitive sparring, folks tend to focus on kicking techniques mostly because the judges award points for kicks (whereas they don't always do so for punches). In other words, just because someone chooses not to punch much in a tournament does *not* mean that s/he is unable to punch well. --- begin quoted message --- Message: 4 From: "Darin Keener" To: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 09:54:42 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Advice for a new person... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net You asked for new people to post, you got it... First, a bit of introduction...I'm 27 years old, and I'll be beginning my first TKD class as a member of a school next Monday. I'm thrilled, since I've wanted to do this since I was a kid, but never had the chance until now. I've been doing a lot of reading and observing, and there are a couple of things on which I could use some advice... 1. I keep reading over and over how weak TKD is in punching and other hand blocks/strikes. I think I confirmed this by watching sparring at a couple of schools which basically consisted of two people kicking one another until a point was declared, and the only blocking that was taking place was when the two happened to try a kick at the same time. Do basic TKD blocks have a place in sparring, or is it hard to translate? Also, can a TKD practitioner *make* their hand techniques stronger by practice and study, or is it just an inherent weakness of the art that would have to be "enriched" by techniques from other arts? 2. As a beginner, are there any books/video resources that would be useful for me to have for a reference or otherwise? I've been looking at some of the things on turtlepress.com, but I could use some advice. Thanks in advance! D. Darin J. Keener Nyghtewynd@earthlink.net --- end quoted message --- _________________________________________________________________ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: jerseyj To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:51:10 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] women's self defense Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: Chereecharmello@aol.com > < have a gentleman, who out-weights you a bit, straddle you and > fight to keep a hold of your arms while you lie on your back.... This reminds me of my role as uki (sp?) for a class. In the dojang I used to belong to (they've gone out of business a while ago) several female blackbelts held a Saturday morning class in self-defense as a supplemental course for the women in the school. About once a month I'd don some protective gear and join the class. I'm 5'10", and was about 190lb solid then. Almost always one of the exercises had me "mounting" the female student as described above to see if they could "escape"...sometimes I'd have to say some things to help get them motivated and it was very very interesting. Allof the Women appreciated having a more "realistic" target. Jerry +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:09:19 -0600 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Training partners Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Michael: ".....Bruce I think you need to check out who you are working out with? No offense to anyone on here but if you are 3rd dan or above and not going almost full speed and almost at 95 percent pain compliance then I don't really consider what you are doing as positive. The one thing I love about working out with the likes of Master Nabors black belts, Master Whalens black belts and some of my guys is that they are to the point of being able to turn the throttle up on their speed and techniques so that you approach full power, full speed.. anything less at this level is ridiculous....." I would need to think on things like "full speed" and "95%" pain compliance. But I think its plain that you caught my gist. I have seen 1-3 gueps go all day long with a break for lunch and at the end of the day they're beat. Fine. I have also seen 3rd and 4th degree BB go for an hour or so and blow-off the rest of the morning, only to come back in the afternoon and sit and watch classes without participating. I don't think its a matter of going all-out for 6 hours straight. I run out of gas just like everyone else. I also have this nasty little problem which can kick-in a necessitate more than average trips to the can.We all have limits. What I think I am questioning, though, is the impact such marginal commitment has for others. In my own case, Chicago is not like, say California, with boatloads of high-ranking Hapkido teachers. To train with someone who has the least idea of what he is about as far as traditional Hapkido is truly an exception here rather than a rule. The result is that when I get a chance to work with someone of any accomplishment at all what I don't need is a 15 minute dissertation on what they can't do, or used to do or would rather not do as a preface to our training. My most sincere congratulations at having the advantage of working with folks who are invested in what they are doing, Mike. Yes, we all need to be careful because we all need to get up the next day and go to work. It is also heard to find time to train in our busy modern lives so when I get the chance I can't do it half-heartedly. BTW: Are you going to Colorado? Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray Terry To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:01:36 PST Subject: [The_Dojang] Absorb what is useful Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Referencing the famous (infamous?) quote from Sigung Bruce Lee: "The truth will be different for each individual. Research your own truths. Absorb what is useful. Discard what is useless." We usually just see it shortened to "Absorb what is useful". IMHO, this is fine for those that are only learning for their own benefit. Nothing wrong with that, nothing at all. One only hopes that what we view as useless this week will be viewed that same way next month or next year after more hours of training (also referred to as 'eating more rice'). But another problem is introduced when we only 'absorb what is useful' and then go on to teach. Will we only be teaching those that are blessed/cursed with the same abilities and limitations that we ourselves have? If we approach learning with the attitude of only absorbing what is useful, we severely limit our ability to carry on the art. There are techniques that I have learned that really don't work too well for me. I am 50, 6'1" and 200 lbs, have two not-so-good knees, a bad back and of only very average athletic ability. Yet my student may be 5', 95 lbs, 18 years old and an excellent athlete. What may be mostly useless for me as a self-defense technique may be an excellent technique for this student. If I had previously discarded this technique as useless, my students and the art have now suffered. FWIW... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:09:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: Aikido [was: [The_Dojang] muscle mem Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "michael tomlinson" > To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:55:19 +0000 > Subject: [The_Dojang] muscle memory > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > definately not the reverse.. Again no offense to my Aikido > brothers but this is why I have a problem practicing that art,, I totally > believe in Ki energy but I don't "assume" it will be there magically when I need > it,, but I know that by practicing very hard and very fast that my muscle > memory developed thru long hours of going close to the edge "will" be there > when I need it. Everything on top of that is gravy. I like the book "Samurai > Akijujutsu" by Toshishiro Obata, who is a descendent of Gozo Shioda,, if you > read the Epilogue in that book he talks about how Aikidoists have been > lulled into being too soft in their practice and that in "old" Aikido > strength was not only used but was looked upon as being absolutely essential > at times,, I agree with him 100%,, you don't develop Ki thru "easy" > practice,, it is developed on the mental and physical forge that is called hardcore > training,, nothing less will do. There are whole worlds of Aikido beyond what you have apparently experienced. Tomiki (Shotokan) Aikido practices regular randori and it's not unusual for techs to be "stress tested" and be derided for being too "hard" and "forceful." Shudokan Aikido's Shodan tests use *LIVE* edge knives. If you're cut, you fail. Yoshinkan Aikido has a well deserved "hard and fast" reputation. There are loads more then Ki Society Aikido. Peace favor your sword --- As of 8:45 on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, I live in a united nation. --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:14:00 -0500 From: Kirk Lawson Organization: Heapy Engineering To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net ("THE$DOJA@SMTP {the_dojang@martialartsresource.net}") Subject: RE: [The_Dojang] Hapkido...and Aikido Th Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" > To: > Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:01:26 -0500 > Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido...and Aikido Thoughts > Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > > To add on Mr. Sexton's thoughts, the one thing I noticed in > Aikido is that > all the attacks are so choreographed! Although I never > studied the art, my > baby brother is a 2nd dan in it and when he was showing me > how they attacked > I had to just stare at him and shake my head. How many different variants of Hapkido are there? How many different variants of TKD are there? Why would you then assume that how *one* school (to say nothing of the whole of that particular style) practices Aikido is how everyone does it? There are *many* different variants of Aikido with varying degrees of "stress testing" and "hard & fast" components. It's not all Bunnies and Light. Aikikai, Tomiki (Shotokan), Tomiki (Geis), Shudokan, Iwama, Yoshinkan, etc. And this is a very incomplete list! Peace favor your sword, Kirk Lawson --- As of 8:45 on Tuesday, September 11, 2001, I live in a united nation. --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:24:51 -0600 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Bert Edens Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD / Hand strikes Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net At 14:08 3/26/02 -0600, you wrote: >You asked for new people to post, you got it... Welcome, Mr. Keener! >First, a bit of introduction...I'm 27 years old, and I'll be beginning my >first TKD class as a member of a school next Monday. I'm thrilled, since >I've wanted to do this since I was a kid, but never had the chance until >now. I've been doing a lot of reading and observing, and there are a couple >of things on which I could use some advice... And welcome to taekwon-do... I'm sure you'll enjoy it! >1. I keep reading over and over how weak TKD is in punching and other hand >blocks/strikes. I think I confirmed this by watching sparring at a couple >of schools which basically consisted of two people kicking one another until >a point was declared, and the only blocking that was taking place was when >the two happened to try a kick at the same time. Do basic TKD blocks have a >place in sparring, or is it hard to translate? Also, can a TKD practitioner >*make* their hand techniques stronger by practice and study, or is it just >an inherent weakness of the art that would have to be "enriched" by >techniques from other arts? If someone thinks TKD is weak in hand techniques, I have a 6th degree you should spar who would backfist you two or three times before you even know what hit you... :-) That's also my favorite lead technique, although I'm not nearly as fast as he is... Yet... :) Seriously, as with most martial arts, I think it depends on the school and instructor. The "sport taekwon-do" is very heavy on kicks. Other styles, such as what I practice certainly are not... If you would like to see more hand techniques, don't be afraid to shop around until you find a school that appeals to you. >2. As a beginner, are there any books/video resources that would be useful >for me to have for a reference or otherwise? I've been looking at some of >the things on turtlepress.com, but I could use some advice. What more can you tell us about the type of TKD you practice at your new school? That would help guide you in the right direction. >Thanks in advance! >D. >Darin J. Keener You're welcome! <> - Bert Edens 1st Degree Recommended, Level 2 Springdale, Arkansas --__--__-- Message: 12 From: "Ward, Jon" To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'" Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 13:24:28 -0800 Subject: [The_Dojang] Instructor in Wurzburg, Germany Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Robert, You can try Holger Morrell. He is one of my Eskrima students and teaches in Wurzburg. He's also one of the nicest people I have ever met. You can contact him at 09.31.353.66.23 sorry I don't have the country code in front of me but I think it's 44. Or you can contact him online he has his own martial arts supply company at www.kuntao.de . Hope this helps. If you haven't been there yet it's incredilble. Jon Ward Inayan Guro www.inayaneskrima.com ward@inayaneskrima.com Inayan Systems Inetrnational Ward's Tae Kwon Do Hapkido > From: "Gordon, Robert E Mr IACH" > > Hello list, > Long time lurker here. I was wondering if any one knew of good MA training > schools around Wurzburg, Germany , I'm moving there for 3-5 years. Thanks, > > Robert E. Gordon > Irwin Army Hospital > Ft. Riley, KS > 785-239-7213 > DSN 856-7213 --__--__-- Message: 13 From: "Randall Sexton" To: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 15:59:09 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] Hapkido...and Aikido Thoughts Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net For Mr. Hilland: We have an acupuncture student here in Austin that practices some style of Aikido that is different from any I've seen. Can't remember what the name of it was, but he is fierce! He refuses to wear a black belt, yet it is obvious he has earned one. Also refuses to charge the few people that will work out with him. He said his instructor was a Hispanic auto mechanic I think in San Antonio. He practices more like Steven Segal than the regular Aikido guys. Course he also has tattoos all over his body and came from a rough background (shot and stabbed a few times). I was showing him one of my knives one time and he pulled out four knives! I asked him why he carried so many and he said they were in case his buddies weren't carrying any! Also have you seen Soshi Seigo Okamoto of the Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Roppokai in action? The guy is probably close to 80 years now and barely moves yet sends people flying everywhere. I found some of it hard to believe, but then a guy from Ft. Hood stopped by and did a demo for us. He had just returned from studying with Okamota in Japan for 3.5 years. The techniques were very small circles, yet you experienced a fast rate of acceleration as you wondered why you were falling down! To add on Mr. Sexton's thoughts, the one thing I noticed in Aikido is that all the attacks are so choreographed! Although I never studied the art, my baby brother is a 2nd dan in it and when he was showing me how they attacked I had to just stare at him and shake my head. This was not done in my diato-ryu studies. Jere R. Hilland Randall Sexton www.laughinghara.com --__--__-- Message: 14 From: "ericules" To: Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 16:03:47 -0600 Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:ACL Reconstruction Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello folks, I just found out yesterday that my ACL is torn. Apparently, it occurred nearly 4 years ago during my last TKD tournament. I am now considering surgery and I'd like to get some input from the members of this list. - What sort of procedure did you have? - How much did it cost? (I know it can vary a lot by location) - How well did the recovery go? - How happy are you with the procedure? - Any other comments or words of advise? Kamsahamnida! Stan Lim Hi Stan----I'm new to the DD, I haven't posted yet, I have been reading for about three weeks, but now is as good a time as any! I'm recovering right now from a complete tear of the ACL and the subsequent surgery to fix it. My injury took place in June last year and my surgery was in late August. I had the patella tendon graft, and a new type of screw to anchor it called a bio-screw. The screw is to dissolve of the course of the next three years and be replaced by bone tissue! As far as cost, the hospital where the procedure was done, the surgeons, MRI and second opinion and all that jazz, billed my insurance company out for over $65k. The payout was probably closer to $30 - $35k. I live in Fort Walton Beach, Florida (for a regional reference). The recovery is going well. I continued to go to class through it all, mainly just to sit on the floor and stretch, or to hobble around with my cane and teach when the Master was not there (he had a revision on a previous surgery shortly after me!). I had to wear a locked brace for the first six weeks. I could take it off to do the therapy and stretches, and then I wore a "sports" brace for the next six weeks. I continue to wear the last brace at class although I don't need it otherwise. The pain was a lot less than I was led to believe it would be, I still have most of my drugs :^>, and I have a permanent numb patch on the outside of my leg around the knee. I've been extremely happy with the whole deal. Get a good sports medicine doctor, perhaps one that specializes in sports injuries. Get a second or third opinion. I would probably avoid a graft from a cadaver if possible. It may slow down the early part of your recovery, but the risks of rejection are real. I would advise you to do as much as you can towards recovery on your own. I'm sure you have a much better grasp of what your body is capable of than the average Joe, so don't get slack and skip the training. Having said that I've got to also advise you not to get to gung-ho and stay close to the boundaries set by the doctor and your therapists. I'm a 34 w male, been training in Hapkido for 4 years (2 TKD with the same Master as a 12-14 yr old). Since my surgery I've gotten into shape to a degree that I've been sort of putting off, dropped from 192 to 175. Riding my road bike for about 40-60 miles per week and throwing in a little jogging. Light weight with the machines at the gym, and I feel great! I hope to test for my Black Belt within the next year or so, so the added incentive of fixing my knee is helping towards reaching the goal of doing my very best before Grandmaster Park when the time may come. I wish you the best in you pursuit of repair..... Keep of the awesome work at the Dojang Digest everyone! Eric Walker 4th Gup Hapkido --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest