Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 06:05:08 -0800 (PST) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #172 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. Re: ACL reconstruction surgery? (Stan Lim) 2. stop laughing MK (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 3. Re: Where is here? (DrgnSlyr5@aol.com) 4. Re: ACL Reconstruction (Dena M) (Stan Lim) 5. Re: ACL reconstruction surgery? (Ray Terry) 6. TKD Ho Shin Sol (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 7. Re: ACL - Surgery Q & A (Andrew Gassiot) (Stan Lim) 8. RE:ACL Reconstruction (ericules) (Stan Lim) 9. Still aching... (Chereecharmello@aol.com) 10. Question for the history/theory buffs (Chereecharmello@aol.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:24:06 +0800 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Stan Lim Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ACL reconstruction surgery? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you, Mr. Terry. It is really humbling to think back and realize that the trip and fall that "ended" my TKD career was a small rock on the sparring mat. Respectfully, Stan Lim slim@employees.org >From: Ray Terry >Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ACL reconstruction surgery? > > > I just found out yesterday that my ACL is torn. Apparently, it occurred > > nearly 4 years ago during my last TKD tournament. I am now considering > > surgery and I'd like to get some input from the members of this list. > >Yes, folks, and I was there when it happened. Or at least I clearly remember >Mr. Lim limping around at the end of that day down in LA-land. > >Stan, so sorry to hear the bad news. Hopefully the folks here will chime in >with some excellent advice. > >Take care of yourself my friend. > >Ray Terry >raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:27:09 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] stop laughing MK Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << Dear Instructor Cheree >> I don't want to be later referenced as the "chubby 1st Dans that claim[s] to be a 7th Dan" (Ray Terry, DD: Vol. 9, #170) so I will correct my title. It's merely "assistant instructor" AKA "unpaid whipping-girl." I must have done something extremely horrific in a past life to deserve this accolade... Hey, I did manage to convince some of the children that I am a PRINCESS... An adult student, however, once referenced me as an "Etiquette Nazi" and yet another called me an "ape-legged troll..." Nice, eh? --__--__-- Message: 3 From: DrgnSlyr5@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:34:30 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Where is here? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 3/27/2002 8:19:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: << Todd, I'll gladly join you in spirit, but how can any of us get those all-important certificates of participation and/or pictures with you if you don't let us know where 'here' is? :) >> Amen to this. I've seen several invitations to seminars/events posted to the DD without city or state info. Naming the city & state will help us decide whether attendance is enough of a possibility for us to inquire offline for more detailed info. Thanks, Sharon --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:36:19 +0800 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Stan Lim Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ACL Reconstruction (Dena M) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Ms. Martin, >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 03:14:18 -0800 (PST) >From: Dena M > > Mr. Lim, >This is my first post to this list, so I hope I did it right. >I particially tore my ACL many years ago but did not know it, they xrayed >my knee and said nothing was wrong with it. Then about 3 years ago after >joining Taekwon-Do I tore it all the way. They again xrayed and did not >see anything, it continued to give out on me. I went to a different Dr. >and had ACL reconstruction about 9 months ago. If you have been having >the trouble that I had with your knee being very unstable and never >knowing when it would give out on you, I would advise having the surgery. I was X-Rayed as well a few years ago but the doctors did not find anything wrong. Soft tissue damage will not show up on an X-Ray normally. >The Doctors did not want to do the surgery on me at first because I am a >woman over 40, for some reason that seemed to be such a no no. I kept >telling them that I did not sit around all the time and that 40 was not >dead. The finally agreed do to the surgery. One of the doctors I just talked to mentioned this as well. The older a patient, the more risk of infection, pain and slow recovery. Hence, they do not recommend it for older patients. In your case, it sounds like your doctor was being extra cautious. >It is hard to get over the memory of my knee giving out and the extreme >pain that goes with it. I know what you mean. I don't think I can remember what a "normal" right knee feels like anymore. Hopefully, the surgery will get me back to the point that I form new and more pleasant memories. >The most trouble I have had is with where they cut the petalla tendon and >took bone from my knee cap. Both places are still very tender and bending >that knee with my weight on it is still pretty painful. Even with this >still bothering me, the knee is much better after the surgery. It is very >stable now and I no longer have to worry about it giving out on me. Gets >stiff and hurts when it rains, but you know, that is going to happen >anytime you have surgery. (they also had to trim out the cartlidge >because I had torn it so bad from my knee giving out so many times). The meniscus tear is actually the main reason I am going for the surgery. If I don't, I'll probably rip my meniscus to shreds, and then I'll be walking like a 90 year-old. >This past weekend I tested for my 1st Dan, the only thing I could not do >was the flying kicks, which my instructor understood. If you have anymore >questions about the surgery, feel free to email me. > >Dena Martin, 1st Dan Ah, it looked like you just passed your BB! Congrats! Kamsahamnida! Stan --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] ACL reconstruction surgery? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 21:24:27 PST Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > Thank you, Mr. Terry. It is really humbling to think back and realize > that the trip and fall that "ended" my TKD career was a small rock > on the sparring mat. Now now, don't say that. Ended!! Bad Stan... :) Just postponed, delayed. You'll be back. You're too crazy to not come back. Take care. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2002 23:40:56 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] TKD Ho Shin Sol Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net << This is for the TKD'ers out there. I've been looking for Honsinsul (sp?), self defence techniques for TKD. It doesn't matter what assn or fed it's from. If anyone as info on videos, books, websites, ect. please post or email me. >> Laurie- I recently started a family of "TKD'ers." I spent a great deal of time with them because they were apparently senior belts in their past style and it seemed unfair to have them start all over again when the techniques are so similar. We taught them up to Pyong Ahn Cho Dan (TSD orange belt) and up to number 6 Ho Shin Sol. I noticed that their TKD version of Ho Shin Sol techniques were EXTREMELY similar to those that we use in TSD. With that in mind, you may want to check out Master C.S. Kim's Videos for Ho Shin Sol. Nicely edited...easy to follow...not too expensive ($20.00?). If you're interested, try E-bay...I have seen people auction a few off. I have even seen a few in local libraries...You can also e-mail Master Kim through his website: (www.cskimkarate.com) and ask them to ship you one... Have you thought about looking for a noncredit class at a local community college or rec. center? I know that some of those classes are crappie, but you can usually tell with in the first few minutes whether or not the person is full of $hit...just in time to ask for you money back :0 ) Good Luck... --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 12:52:48 +0800 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Stan Lim Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: ACL - Surgery Q & A (Andrew Gassiot) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello Mr. Gassiot, >From: "Andrew Gassiot" >Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 08:42:58 -0600 > > > - How much did it cost? (I know it can vary a lot by location) >All said and done about 22K, that was out patient with overnight stay. Wow! I wasn't expecting it to be so high. That makes the USD $4K (yes, four thousand) quote by the doctor here in Singapore sound like a steal. > > - How well did the recovery go? >Quite well, do your exercises and you will do fine. I actually travelled >on business and was walking in NYC 14 days post-op, no cane, no crutches. >The biggest problem was getting up after being on a 4 hour flight. Were you able to walk within a day or two after surgery? The doctors here claim that most patients can walk a day after surgery. > > - How happy are you with the procedure? >Really happy, I can walk without fear of my knee going out and falling on my >face. I really hated that part. I know what you mean exactly. One time, I was walking fast through an airport to catch a flight and my knee gave out 20 feet from the gate. An older lady next to me who saw me wince in pain kindly asked me if I was okay and even offered to help me get on the plane. > > - Any other comments or words of advise? >If it's only a partial tear, you may, stress may, be able to rehab it. If >it's stretched or completetly torn, it's been a long time since your injury >you may want to study up on the efficacy of surgery after waiting that long. >Elway had both his ACLs' completly torn in high school and still played pro >ball, that was something more to do with the way his legs were built in the >first place though. Grafts from your hamstrings are very popular now and >the recovery is the fastest with allografts (dead guy parts). Do a lookup >for Bob's knee board and it's a great resource for knee problems, I'm >assuming it's still our there. The procedure I am considering would require a graft from my own hamstring. Hopefully, my hamstring is still decent enough for the job. They will cut out one strand about 10" long, cut that in 2, and fold it in half to get 4 strands as my replacement ACL. >Find a sergeon that specializes in knees, or knees and shoulders, be weary >of one that does everything or has a bunch of accident 'victims', they tend >to be working for attourneys and perform questionable work. If you have a >family doc, or know a doc, nurse, physical therapist, ask them to recommend >two or three OS's for you to visit. The key thing hear is to ask them who >would they want to perform the work if it was them. Sometimes you can tell >a lot by just sitting in the waiting room. I really felt at home when I >walked into the OS office with a bunch of high school and college level >athletes, these guys also did a lot of work on the local pro teams. My wife works in the health care industry and we have friends who are Physical Therapists who referred us to 2 knee specialists. The doctor I am working with now is a sports doctor and treats a lot of soccer players. Thank you for the great input. Stan --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 13:13:09 +0800 To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net From: Stan Lim Subject: [The_Dojang] RE:ACL Reconstruction (ericules) Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hi Eric! >From: "ericules" > >Hi Stan----I'm new to the DD, I haven't posted yet, I have been reading >for about three weeks, but now is as good a time as any! Yes, I've been on this list for probably 5 years and posted a little in the early years but I've been lurking mostly these last few years. I really appreciate the fact that I have a forum to discuss my concerns with people who I know have similar situations. >I'm recovering >right now from a complete tear of the ACL and the subsequent surgery to >fix it. My injury took place in June last year and my surgery was in >late August. I had the patella tendon graft, and a new type of screw to >anchor it called a bio-screw. The screw is to dissolve of the course of >the next three years and be replaced by bone tissue! The bio-screws are an option for me but some doctors still prefer the older titanium screws because they are stronger. However, I really do like having the chance for the screw to be absorbed and replaced with my own bone over time. >As far as cost, the >hospital where the procedure was done, the surgeons, MRI and second >opinion and all that jazz, billed my insurance company out for over >$65k. The payout was probably closer to $30 - $35k. I live in Fort >Walton Beach, Florida (for a regional reference). Geez, I can't imagine what it would cost in California (where I call home. I just work in Singapore now and will be here for a few years). As I mentioned in my previous post, I guess the $4K that is costs here is a real bargain. It's probably because they don't have to worry so much about frivolous lawsuits here. >The recovery is going >well. I continued to go to class through it all, mainly just to sit on >the floor and stretch, or to hobble around with my cane and teach when >the Master was not there (he had a revision on a previous surgery >shortly after me!). I had to wear a locked brace for the first six >weeks. I could take it off to do the therapy and stretches, and then I >wore a "sports" brace for the next six weeks. I continue to wear the >last brace at class although I don't need it otherwise. How long did your doctors say your recovery would take? Here, they say that soccer players can return to training after 6 months. >The pain was a >lot less than I was led to believe it would be, I still have most of my >drugs :^>, and I have a permanent numb patch on the outside of my leg >around the knee. Hmm, this is something I'll need to ask my doctor when I meet him to discuss the details of the surgery. I wasn't aware that the pain would last so long. >I would probably avoid a graft >from a cadaver if possible. It may slow down the early part of your >recovery, but the risks of rejection are real. Yeah, I'll stick to my own body parts :-) >Since my surgery I've gotten into shape to a degree that I've >been sort of putting off, dropped from 192 to 175. Riding my road bike >for about 40-60 miles per week and throwing in a little jogging. Light >weight with the machines at the gym, and I feel great! I hope to test >for my Black Belt within the next year or so, so the added incentive of >fixing my knee is helping towards reaching the goal of doing my very >best before Grandmaster Park when the time may come. I'm glad to hear that you can resume your activities. I have been a little frustrated because the injury has limited my activities these last few years. I will have to remember not to be too gung-ho in getting back to active sports but on second thoughts, my job will probably keep me in check :-) >I wish you the best in you pursuit of repair..... Thank you for sharing your experience. >Keep of the awesome work at the Dojang Digest everyone! I second that. Let's not forget to thank Mr. Terry for creating and hosting this forum. I believe he is still funding this out of his own pockets. Best regards to all, Stan Lim --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:17:47 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Still aching... Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Thank you for your response... Still aching though...My dogs run from me when I put on Tiger Balm...I think the odor stings their eyes... << Begin Clip> Although not traditionally TSD, our instructor contends that, if we use sweeps in TSD, Hmmm... I've heard that Kee (the governing board, really) has now added throws and sweeps to TSD. It's either real new or (and?) not strongly stresses since the TSD (SBD MDK) Dojang I was in last week had only padded carpet, no mats (though they were excited that they'd just ordered some nifty new jigsaw mats).<> My instructor/slash fiance likes to see me play woodchuck. I often find my teeth buried in the floor. The students thik it's staged. I guess I often deserve it. (Stop laughing MK) We are both young and heckle each other to the point of insanity...We are a real live Punch and Judy type couple :0 ) Anyway, the organization I am a member of does not teach sweeping until just prior to testing for BB (thus minimal need to learn to hurl one's self to the ground right away). My instructor mutually studied Hapkido/TSD in another organization for a long time before returning solely to TSD. He believes that, although it is not part of the mandatory curriculum, he should not hold back the knowledge he has from the students who wish to learn and practice such techniques. I respect that. I respect the people who do this joint-mutilating, bone -bruising stuff..It's a rough art. The senior TSD people practice falling routinely. We did, however, have to learn how to fall WITHOUT the mats. He was kinder then. We started from a squatting position and worked our way up. My Kyo Sa recently taught a Hap-hazard-kido class and the response from the students was a bit overwhelming. He bought mats TODAY... On my way to buy Epsom Salts, Ben Gay and Aleve... -Cheree (I'll save you some, MK...) --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Chereecharmello@aol.com Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2002 00:19:42 EST To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Question for the history/theory buffs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Question for the history/theory buffs on the DD... I have heard/read some pretty strange explanations about the origins of nunchuku. The only plausible explanation I have read thus far is that, during a period when weaponry was outlawed in Owkinawa, the farmers developed an elaborate fighting system using their farming utensils and the nunchuks were really flailing tools used for cutting stalks... Some one once asked my where the "Bong" originated...It's a stick, for crying-out-loud...I guess that answer would be "God?!?" :0) All joking aside, does anyone know of a good/informative read about such information? -Cheree --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest