Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 18:40:11 -0700 (PDT) From: the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: The_Dojang digest, Vol 9 #194 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.8 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Sender: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.8 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net List-Help: List-Post: X-Subscribed-Address: rterry@idiom.com List-Subscribe: List-Id: The Internet's premier discussion forum on Korean Martial Arts. List-Unsubscribe: Status: OR Send The_Dojang mailing list submissions to the_dojang@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at the_dojang-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of The_Dojang digest..." <<------------------ The_Dojang mailing list ------------------>> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Today's Topics: 1. NKMAA Seminar (kevin_janisse) 2. Re: RE: Bassai, what way is the right way ?? (Ray Terry) 3. Re: Kata --er-- Hyung question (Bruce Sims) 4. RE: Bassai, what way is the right way ?? (bredfield) 5. TSD Hyungs (Charles Richards) 6. Re: Still Hanging Among The Low Life's (Creed71963@aol.com) 7. Top 10 Martial Arts on TV (Hapkido Self Defense Center) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "kevin_janisse" To: Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:42:23 -0500 Subject: [The_Dojang] NKMAA Seminar Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Hello all, Just returned from a great seminar with Master Timmerman. We went to Master Garret DeWitt's school Brainerd MN. It was a great time, Master DeWitt was a great host and all his students displayed the virtues of true Martial Artists. Master DeWitt is a credit to the Martial Arts world. Sincerely, Kevin M. Janisse NKMAA --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Ray Terry Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] RE: Bassai, what way is the right way ?? To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 13:50:15 PDT Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net > The first question I have for the group came about while I was performing > Bassai (52 moves) to a visiting master from another association. > > Upon completing the hyung to the best of my ability he mentioned that all > the knife hand blocks are high section and not middle section. He went on to > state that this was the way he was taught and the way he teaches and that, > it is the correct way. > > I on the other hand was taught that after coming out of the spear hand, > punch, block, punch, block in horse stance that you step up and execute a > left mid section KH block then a right mid section KH then another left KH > (hope I have not lost anyone here). Then step back into a high right hand > block. Master Mac has an excellent website for KMA forms info. http://users.ev1.net/~D.McHenry/forms/ Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 15:33:43 -0500 From: "Bruce Sims" To: Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Kata --er-- Hyung question Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Dear Ken: ".....Second question pertains to "traditional TSD hyungs" Can anyone shred some light on this? I have heard and read many different things and see different associations/organizations teach different hyungs at different levels and all claim they are the traditional TSD hyungs. All I want to do is teach the traditional TSD hyungs in the correct sequence according to what grade students are at......" Funny you should bring this topic up. I have been engaged in an on-going discussion on another Net regarding the nature of the various kata cum hyung and can probably shed some light on things and make a few educated referrals for additional reading material. Lets start with the nature of the kata themselves. About all of the kata that are taught in both TKD and TSD are begged, borrowed, or stolen from the Japanese traditions. Just about every kata I can think of came to the Koreans courtesy of the Funakoshi tradition (aka: Shotokan kata) which is pretty much the source of most of Karate tradition in Japan. There are, of course Goju-ryu, and Uechi-ryu and Shito-ryu but Funakoshi is recognized as bringing Karate to Japan and getting it into the school system just as his teacher, Itosu got it into the Okinawan school system. Between Itosu and Funakoshi the idea seems to have been to do for Karate what Kano did for Ju-jutsu: to wit: make a safe, and scientifically rationale, approach to a martial sport from a martial art (REF: KARATE-DO KYOHAN by Funakoshi, DYNAMIC KARATE by Nakayama and KARATE by Nishiyama and Brown). Apparently, if one wants to get back to the "real deal" as far as these kata go--- given that you are a pratitioner of Korean MA who wants to learn southern Chinese/Okinawan/Japanese tradition---- you need to back up before many of the immediate lineage to the likes of Soken Matsumora, Kenwa Mabuni and Kanbun Uechi. Now there are a couple of ways you can do this. The first way is to completely debase yourself for four months with people who know one helluva lot more that you do about the subject. Personally I don't recommend it as it is extraordinarily hard on the self-esteem. But you get quite an educatuion on all the neat stuff that Korean GM either don't tell you or never knew themselves. The alternate approach is to go onto something like the DD and ask if anyone has done the first approach and benfit by their bruises.In which case someone will take pity on you and share the following. 1.) BAREFOOT ZEN by Nathan J. Johnson. ISBN 1578631424 A must have--- especially since you asked about the meaning of kata. M Johnson does a heckofa job on Sanchin and Naifanchi. 2.) Classical Kata of Okinawa by Pat McCarthy ISBN 0897501136. You'll probably like this one better because the kata are executed in a fashion more reflective of the longer stances and squared shoulders of Shotokan and TKD. 3.) OKINAWAN KARATE by Mark Bishop ISBN 0804832056 If its from Tuttle Publ its got to be good. A great overview of who did what and to whom in the history of Okinawan Karate and how it came from China to Okinawa to Japan. 4.) ESSENCE OF OKINAWAN KARATE-DO by Shoshin Nagamine ISBN 0804821108 Another beauty from Tuttle Publ. You get to see the old kata, done the old way by an old master. Now, heres' the fly in the ointment. By the time you get finished reading these four books you will know more about the origins of the kata that became the TKD hyung than your teacher. However, you will still be under his authority and expected to do things his way. What will make it worse is that you will KNOW that you are doing the hyung wrong, and know why it needs to be done differently and there will probably be nothing you can do about it as far as he is concerned. And I am REAL sorry about that. Good luck. Best Wishes, Bruce --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2002 17:10:32 -0400 From: bredfield Subject: [The_Dojang] RE: Bassai, what way is the right way ?? Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net All the knife hand blocks are middle (center) soo do in Paisai Dai, as per USSBDMDKF , TSDMGKA, and most others, check the USSBDMDK RedBelt Guide, Kang Uk Lee's book , American Tang SooDo Assoc. book(GM Byrne), World TSD, too many to mention, so now I'm curious, which org. did this gentlemen come from?? Bernard http://pages.cthome.net/redtsd --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 14:09:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Charles Richards To: Dojang Digest Subject: [The_Dojang] TSD Hyungs Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net I on the other hand was taught that after coming out of the spear hand, punch, block, punch, block in horse stance that you step up and execute a left mid section KH block then a right mid section KH then another left KH (hope I have not lost anyone here). Then step back into a high right hand block. On looking in to this further, in G.M. Hwang Uk Lee's book the students demonstrates the hyung using all knife hand block's. By the way I am ex WTSDA and that is where I was taught the hyung. Second question pertains to "traditional TSD hyungs" Can anyone shred some light on this? I have heard and read many different things and see different associations/organizations teach different hyungs at different levels and all claim they are the traditional TSD hyungs. All I want to do is teach the traditional TSD hyungs in the correct sequence according to what grade students are at. A list of what grades should do what hyung up 8th Dan would be appreciated (not that I will teach beyond what I know). One thing I don't want is to get into a 'bickering' match; just some simple info is needed. Dear Ken, Welcome from another X WTSDA player, which is also how I learned Bassai. To answer your first question we need to define high and middle KH. For me a "high" KH is eye level, the knife edge is protecting the philthrum/jaw and "middle" is protecting the solar plexus (executed in front stance like PA#1). There are others who define middle KH as protecting the face and high KH as an over head block with the knife edge of the hand instead of the forearm.... For me in Bassai the hand position is "eye" level... OK I'm away from my library but from memory here's a chart Testing to Rank USKMAF WTSDA Alternate 9th Gup ID WTSDA #1 Ki Cho #1 8th Gup ID WTSDA #2 Ki Cho #2 7th Gup ID WTSDA #3 Ki Cho #3 6th Gup Pyung Ahn Cho Dan 5th Gup Pyung Ahn Yi Dan 4th Gup Pyung Ahn Sam Dan 3rd Gup Pyung Ahn Sa Dan 2nd Gup Pyung Ahn Oh Dan 1st Gup Bassai Cho Dan Bo N/A Naihanji #1 1st Dan Naihanji #1 Sip Soo Naihanji #1 2nd Dan Sip Soo Naihanji #2 Jin Do Naihanji #2 Naihanji #2 3rd Dan Jindo Jindo RoHai Naihanji #3 Naihanji #3 Kong Sang Koon Naihanji #3 4th Dan RoHai RoHai Sip Soo KSK KSK Seisan 5th Dan SeiSan Seisan Wansu Wansu Wansu Jion 6th Jion Jion Oh Sip Sa Bo Oh Sip Sa Bo Oh Sip Sa Bo 7th N/A Tae Kyuk Kwan Tae Kyuk Kwan So Rim Jang Kwon So Rim JK 8th Non Physical-------------------------------- Qualifiers; USKMAF are our minimum standards, not all use the Ki Cho Hyungs, so up to 7th Gup is instructor's discretion. Neither Master McHenry nor I know or know anyone who knows Tae Kyuk Kwan or So Rim Jang Kwon, so we have not made it a requirement yet. We also left weapons up to instructor discretion as some do not teach, or teach different weapons forms, but in general I have seen Staff around 4th Gup, Tanto around 2nd Dan, and Sword around 3rd or 4th Dan. Master Dunn can probably correct/update my WTSDA stuff, or I can reccomend GM Shin, Jae Chul's Hyung Books in addition to GM Lee, Kang Uk's. I have left out the Chil SUng and Yuk Rho Hyungs but any Soo Bahk Do Player could fill you in on when they are introduced. Since they are added by GM Hwang it's up to you if they are "traditional" and/or part of your cirriculum :-) Yours in Jung Do, Charles Richards Moja Kwan TSD Yahoo! Tax Center - online filing with TurboTax http://taxes.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Creed71963@aol.com Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 19:21:34 EDT To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Still Hanging Among The Low Life's Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 04/07/2002 4:06:10 AM EST, the_dojang-request@martialartsresource.net writes: <> The Dojang Digest has become known as a haven for fakes, frauds and >people of the lowest character within the Korean Martial Arts on the >internet. Many reputable practitioners have found their name smeared >and their reputation soiled by this type of DD member, with the latest >being threats to have their legitimate rank revoked by unscrupulous >persons. <> >> Gee...does anyone think we have a case of liable here? ^_^ I mean, if this person was dragged into court and he'd have to PROVE the Dojang Digest is a haven for fakes, frauds and people of the lowest character within the Korean Martial Arts on the Internet. He'd have to show that reputable practitioners have found their name smeared and their reputation soiled by members of the DD and disclose which people received these 'threats' to have their legitimate rank revoked by unscrupulous persons. And when he can't, we'll take him for $20 plus lawyer's costs (Which would be about $20 million ^_^) NOTE: I am only being sarcastic with the above paragraph, and do not advocate really suing the guy for liable. He probably doesn't have enough gonads or money to make such an endeavor worth the effort. Besides, we have to stay with the high road and show by example the guy is full of hot air.....^_^ Craig --__--__-- Message: 7 From: "Hapkido Self Defense Center" To: Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2002 20:54:26 -0400 Subject: [The_Dojang] Top 10 Martial Arts on TV Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net Ken, I saw that and I just had to wonder who in the world considered these the top 10 martial arts!?! They never said who considered them the top 10, but it was actually embarrassing to see this as a representation to the public as the MA. It was on A&E (the arts and entertainment channel). They portrayed aikido and kungfu as religions, and karate, kali, and the unknown art as strictly self-abusive. I am going off memory, but here they are: Shaolin Kungu (wushu) Gojoryu Karate Muay Thai Kukki-Taekwondo Krav Maga Brazilian Gracie Jujitsu Aikido Muay Thai Combat Kali Unknown: Some very strange art founded by an American (I do not remember the name), all they did was see how soon they could receive disability checks by punching and kicking each other as hard as they could, even in the throat. The advertising indicated that this was a series. Top 10 whatever - top 10 largest structures, etc. Jere R. Hilland www.geocities.com/hapkiyukwonsul --__--__-- _______________________________________________ The_Dojang mailing list The_Dojang@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/the_dojang http://the-dojang.net It's a great day for Taekwondo! Support the USTU by joining today. US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 104C, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.org Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com. Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Remember 9-11! End of The_Dojang Digest