Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:56:16 -0700 (PDT)
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<<------------------   The_Dojang mailing list   ------------------>>

Serving the Internet since June 1994.
Copyright 1994-2002: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource

The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Korean Martial Arts.

See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and the online search engine
for back issues of The_Dojang at http://MartialArtsResource.com

Pil Seung!

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Top 10 Martial Arts on TV (Ray Terry)
   2. Middle Blocks and Purity in Kata (oops!  I meant Hyung!  No!
       Poo mse!  Sorry!) (Burdick, Dakin Robert)
   3. Re: KM vs CDT (spunkykvf)
   4. Re: Pseudo-Japanese Culture (Bruce Sims)
   5. Bassai and other Tang Soo Do Hyungs (Dunn, Danny J RASA)
   6. Re: Re: KM vs CDT (Ray Terry)
   7. CDT (Randall Sexton)
   8. Re: CDT (Ray Terry)

--__--__--

Message: 1
From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Top 10 Martial Arts on TV
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 7:30:01 PDT
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> <snip>
> Combat Kali
> Unknown: Some very strange art founded by an American (I do not remember the
> name), all they did was see how soon they could receive disability checks by
> punching and kicking each other as hard as they could, even in the throat.
> </snip>
> 
>   I saw a documentary on this on the Discovery channel recently. As far as I
> recall it's called "Combat Ki", the general idea being that the practicioners 
> learn how to direct ki energy to a specific body area to prevent injury when
> struck. 

Right.  Combat Ki rather than Kali.  Kali and Eskrima and Arnis are different
words for the fighting arts of the Philippines.  Those arts were apparently
represented by Rick Tucci (under Dan Inosanto) and the Dog Brothers from
Southern Cal.  There is been a lot of chatter on this over on our Eskrima
list as the Dog Brothers have infested that list with their fleas.  :)

The Combat Ki group does some interesting stuff, but...   If they want
to prove to me they can take a kick to the groin area, allow me to place 
their family jewels on a anvil and give me sledge...  Then I'd believe they
have something special.

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

--__--__--

Message: 2
From: "Burdick, Dakin Robert" <burdickd@indiana.edu>
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 08:47:37 -0500 
Subject: [The_Dojang] Middle Blocks and Purity in Kata (oops!  I meant Hyung!  No!
 Poo mse!  Sorry!)
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Bruce Simms had a great post that finished:

> Now, heres' the fly in the ointment. By the time you get finished reading
these four books
> you will know more about the origins of the kata that became the TKD hyung
than your
> teacher. However, you will still be under his authority and expected to do
things his way.
> What will make it worse is that you will KNOW that you are doing the hyung
wrong, and
> know why it needs to be done differently and there will probably be
nothing you can do
> about it as far as he is concerned.  And I am REAL sorry about that.
Good luck.

This is right on the nose!!  Listen to these words of wisdom folks!!  You
can never go 
home again.  And the Nagamine book is my favorite, although Bruce did leave
out:

Higaonna, Morio.  The History of Karate:  Okinawan Goju-ryu.  Westlake 
Village, CA:  Dragon Books, 2001.  2nd edition.  ISBN:  0946062366

Higaonna definitely knows what he is talking about.  Anyways, Bernard then 
queried:
 
> All the knife hand blocks are middle (center) soo do in Paisai Dai, as
> per USSBDMDKF , TSDMGKA, and most others, check the USSBDMDK RedBelt
> Guide, Kang Uk Lee's book , American Tang SooDo Assoc. book(GM Byrne),
> World TSD, too many to mention, so now I'm curious, which org. did this
> gentlemen come from??

Likely they were from a group affiliated with the Shotokan or Shotokai.
Gichin
Funakoshi was a little guy, and when he did his shuto (oop!  I mean sudo!
No!  I mean 
sonnal!  Sorry!) blocks, they were always done at the high section because
everyone
was bigger than him.  Some of his students figured that was the way they
were 
supposed to be.  Keeping them at middle level allows you to use your lats
and pects
more efficiently, and allows your elbow to guard your floating ribs.  Stick
to the
middle path (unless you're a short person)!

Yours in the arts,

Dakin Burdick
burdickd@indiana.edu

--__--__--

Message: 3
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 07:19:27 -0700
From: spunkykvf <spunkykvf@yahoo.com>
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: KM vs CDT
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

>I have experience in KM, but not CDT, thus, my answer is focused on KM.  I
have been taking KM for a couple months in my areas at a new school that was
certified just this year.  I also took classes in LA at the National Center.
I have had nothing but good experiences with this particular self defense
style.  It is easy to  learn, requires no complex techniques, simply body
reactions and of course, boxing and kicking.  The national center has many
connections with law enforcement agencies all over the US, and seems to be
working well for that section. KM seems to add dimension to other MA programs,
bringing in people who wouldn't do MA due to the esoteric nature, but want
pure self defense.  It also has helped some instructors focus their MA program
and add some of KM to their previous training of their students.  I would
recommend it as something to add to your program, as it seems to make money
for the schools, and bring in a different student body.  However, having no
experience with CDT, I can not tell you which would suit you better.
>Spunky

--__--__--

Message: 4
Date: Tue,  9 Apr 2002 09:31:26 -0500
From: "Bruce Sims" <bsims@mailserver.midwesthapkido.com>
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Subject: [The_Dojang] Re: Pseudo-Japanese Culture
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Dear Charles: 

".....With the creation of a Korean National sport, it was very important for 
the Koreans to "Nationalize" the art, so more kicks where added, and 
motions where re-organized into different patterns, but the motions are 
the same.  Watching my fellow AAU competitors do TKD forms sometimes 
looks like they are doing TSD forms with the moves in the wrong order, 
or half of one form, and pieces from another......" 

I love ya! If you was a women (thats' "broad" to Ken) I'd kiss ya! I have to tell you, though, that I am becoming steadily more and more frustrated with this particular line of reasoning. Not that I am saying that its not true, Charles. I'll bet dollars to donuts that it probably is. But, now, check this out. 

Its been reported that after the liberation of Vichy France during WW II and the trials against collaborators following the War, I understand that several thousands were punished included a great many who were executed for their roles in aiding and abetting the Nazi occupation. And that was an occupation which lasted less than a decade! 

Now, the Japanese Occupation has its roots all the way back to the 
1870-s but for the sake of argument lets use 1910. It ended in 1945-6. Thats more than THREE decades of pain and abuse. Will someone please explain to me how it is that ANYTHING even remotely smacking of Japanese culture would be allowed to exist (let alone integrated as a Korean tradition) after more than 30 years of abuse and repression? If India conquored the US, and held us in a repressive regime for for 30 years just exactly how many "curry palaces" do you think you would find being marketed afterwards as "traditional American Cusine"? :-)

As It is you have people thinking that the only Hapkido arts are the ones with Japanese roots, that Shotokan cum TKD is Korean tradition and was practiced by the HwaRang warriors, and that there is no Kumdo, only Kendo-by-another-name! I used to think that it was a kind of "Confucian thing," that prevented Koreans from investing in things martial. But the fact is that Korean nationals buy into the whole Japanese cum Korean traditions Big Time, so I don't think thats it. 

I am open to suggestions. Are Koreans their own worst enemies? Is there some sort of National schizophrenic-approach/avoidance going on about MA/MT training that Westerners need to know about? I have been thinking with increasing frequency that the reason that we Westerners seem to be at least as organized as our Korean counterparts, is because, in fact, they are actually as DIS-organized as we are. Imean, do any of these folks really have some idea of what it is that they are trying to accomplish? 

Now switching to Decaf----

Best Wishes, 

Bruce  

--__--__--

Message: 5
From: "Dunn, Danny J RASA" <danny.dunn@redstone.army.mil>
To: "'the_dojang@martialartsresource.net'"
  <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 09:59:52 -0500 
Subject: [The_Dojang] Bassai and other Tang Soo Do Hyungs
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Ken,

I read your email and understand your frustration.  I also read Bruce's comments
to you and don't think he really helped with your problem.  Bruce is correct to
say that most hyungs in Tang Soo Do came from Japan, OS Funakoshi, by way of
Okinawa and originally most likely from the same or root forms from China.

I also recommend that you go back and study the Japanese and Okinawan Kata.
However, I'm guessing you won't be able to answer your question going back and
studying Okinawan variations of the forms.  Forms change over time and due to
individual interpretation.  In fact if you make comparison among the references
that Bruce cited and other Okinawan and Japanese texts you will see several
Okinawan and Japanese variations of the same forms.

To get to your immediate question, I teach Bassai with choong dan ssang soo do,
and have under different organizations and masters.  I also have seen other orgs
do sang dan ssang soo do.  The fact that you are doing a traditional form does
not depend on whether you do high or middle level knife hand blocks.  Look at it
from interpretation of application of the form and there is little or no
difference.  Different organizations and masters sometimes make great
differences over trivial matters because of political or ego battles.

The best hyung instructor I have ever had a class under begins his hyung classes
(these are seminars or camps and not at his dojang) for senior dans by saying
something like this:  "I am not here to tell you how to do these hyungs, as
senior dans you have been doing them for years.  I am going to show you how I do
them and tell you why I do them the way I do."  But the bottom line is in most
cases, if you belong to an org or follow a master, you do it the way you are
told.

And once again, Ken, there is no easy answer to your second question.  The
hyungs required for dan level, and in some cases even whether a form is done or
not depend on the organization.  If you interested in what we do, you can email
me privately.

In general the progression is Bassai, Naihanchi(3), with Sip Soo thrown in
somewhere in most cases, Jin to, Ro Hai, Kong Sang Koon, Sei san, Wan Shu, Oh
Sip Sa Bo, So Rim Jang Kwon and Tae Kuk Kwon.  In most cases Ro Hai and Kong
Sang Koon are for Sah Dan which is traditionally considered Master.  GM Hwang
has also added another series of forms called Chil Sung, that are interspersed
if you are affiliated with his organization, but I don't know if he dropped any
or not.

<<<<<<<I on the other hand was taught that after coming out of the spear hand,
punch, block, punch, block in horse stance that you step up and execute a
left mid section KH block then a right mid section KH then another left KH
(hope I have not lost anyone here). Then step back into a high right hand
block.

On looking in to this further, in G.M. Hwang Uk Lee's book the students
demonstrates the hyung using all knife hand block's.

By the way I am ex WTSDA and that is where I was taught the hyung.

Second question pertains to "traditional TSD hyungs"

Can anyone shred some light on this? I have heard and read many different
things and see different associations/organizations teach different hyungs
at different levels and all claim they are the traditional TSD hyungs.

All I want to do is teach the traditional TSD hyungs in the correct sequence
according to what grade students are at.

A list of what grades should do what hyung up 8th Dan would be appreciated
(not that I will teach beyond what I know).

One thing I don't want is to get into a 'bickering' match; just some simple
info is needed.

Best Regard,

Ken Nessworthy Sam Dan>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Shinson Tang Soo Do Association

--__--__--

Message: 6
From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] Re: KM vs CDT
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 9:14:52 PDT
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

> I have experience in KM, but not CDT, thus, my answer is focused on KM.  I
> have been taking KM for a couple months in my areas at a new school that was
> certified just this year.  I also took classes in LA at the National Center.
> I have had nothing but good experiences with this particular self defense
> style.  It is easy to  learn, requires no complex techniques, simply body
> reactions and of course, boxing and kicking.  The national center has many
> connections with law enforcement agencies all over the US, and seems to be
> working well for that section. KM seems to add dimension to other MA programs,
> bringing in people who wouldn't do MA due to the esoteric nature, but want
> pure self defense.

So a question on KM...  Given it was developed for the IDF (Israeli Defense
Forces) it had young, in shape, women and men in mind.  People that are doing
PT (physical training) every day for breakfast, and perhaps lunch and dinner.

It seems to work fairly well for young 20-something, fast, strong, in-shape
students training to go to war, as we see them involved in right now.  How 
about the rest of the world???  The 30 or 40-something folks that only do PT 
during their twice a week KM classes? 

Just a question...

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com

--__--__--

Message: 7
From: "Randall Sexton" <txhapkido@thegateway.net>
To: <the_dojang@martialartsresource.net>
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 11:22:51 -0500
Subject: [The_Dojang] CDT
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

Just what is the purpose of a system like CDT when all one has to do in an art
such as Hapkido is to change the intent? Some of the first techniques taught
can be used to restrain someone while you have a serious chat with them or to
injure them seriously in life-threatening situations (better to be judged by
12 than carried by 6).


Randall Sexton
www.laughinghara.com

--__--__--

Message: 8
From: Ray Terry <raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com>
Subject: Re: [The_Dojang] CDT
To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net
Date: Tue, 09 Apr 2002 10:32:08 PDT
Reply-To: the_dojang@martialartsresource.net

>can be used to restrain someone while you have a serious chat with them or to
>injure them seriously in life-threatening situations (better to be judged by
>12 than carried by 6).

As a Texican brave enough to admit that he does "Zen Shiatsu", he probably
knows about life threatening situations...  :)

Ray Terry
raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com


--__--__--

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